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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
..."A Human Sorceror?"

Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 4:52pm

Post #1 of 22 (1074 views)
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..."A Human Sorceror?" Can't Post

Saruman states

"HE is jus...' a HUMAN Sorceror!"

Really?
Saruman has sum 'Esplainin'
to do!

BombyBadAss


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2013, 5:01pm

Post #2 of 22 (643 views)
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Yes, it's definitely a canon error... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the Race of "Men". The term "Human" doesn't exist in ME, as far as I'm aware.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


axecrazy
Rivendell


Apr 7 2013, 5:16pm

Post #3 of 22 (582 views)
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For the benefit of a general audience [In reply to] Can't Post

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Men

Saying 'Mannish' wouldn't have sounded right, imo. I don't think 'human' is used in the movies unless it can be helped. I think it was necessary in this one case.


Azog: Defiling since 2790


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2013, 5:21pm

Post #4 of 22 (533 views)
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He could have simply substituted "mortal sorcerer"... [In reply to] Can't Post

as he'd already used it previously in the discourse, and it accurately distinguishes Saruman's hypotehtical Necromancer from the Istari.

Alternatively, given all the random ME name-dropping in an attempt to make the story seem bigger, he might have said something like "this sorcerer is most likely just a man of Umbar, dabbling in the black arts" or something to that effect...something like that would have better fit into the ME world.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 7 2013, 5:25pm)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2013, 5:21pm

Post #5 of 22 (518 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

derp...Tongue

were there human sorcerers in ME??????

I thought all the wielders of magic were Maiar and Elves and such....

Go outside and play...


axecrazy
Rivendell


Apr 7 2013, 5:29pm

Post #6 of 22 (496 views)
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Dwarves are mortal, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, Elves, Wizards, and Dwarves aren't the only ones capable of using magic. Men, too, are capable of using those energies. I use the word magic very loosely... it just means being able to tap into the unseen forces of power that run through Middle-earth.

The smiths of Eregion created many lesser Rings of Power for instance... and we do not know what happened to all those Rings. And of course Sauron spread knowledge of sorcery among Men during the days when he could still take a fairer form. What I've deduced from all this is that there are minor sorcerers scattered across Middle-earth who are generally not seen as a threat among the Wise.

This is all stuff from the books, of course. The line in the movie simply signifies that Saruman is not talking about Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Istari, or Dwarves. He speaks of Men, but it is simpler to say 'human' because a modern audience will understand that a bit more easily.


Azog: Defiling since 2790


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 7 2013, 5:31pm

Post #7 of 22 (518 views)
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I've wondered about that since War in the North. [In reply to] Can't Post

They have a character "Agandaur" who is a Black Númenórean that wields black magic. They say in the game that Sauron taught some of his servants magical arts, with the use of scrolls. But I don't think there's any evidence of it in the books.

On a side note, I think Agandaur was originally meant to be the Númenórean that delivered the threats to Gloin, but as the game's story developed the idea was scrapped and he was left as an entirely new invention. I'd love to write the story to a more accurate game, as the original concept had so much promise.


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Apr 7 2013, 5:32pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 6:22pm

Post #8 of 22 (474 views)
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Human sorcerers are at least implied... [In reply to] Can't Post

The White Council suspected the Necromancer to be a mortal being (or one of the Nine) until Gandalf discovered his true identity. That seems to imply that Sauron (and probably Melkor before him) taught the Black Arts to Men who came to worship Melkor. I would think that this would have been especially true in the case of the Numenoreans.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 7 2013, 6:38pm

Post #9 of 22 (465 views)
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Consider it a translation for modern audiences. They don't actually speak modern English either, but [In reply to] Can't Post

no matter. The Men reffers to humans. Homo Sapiens Sapiens as opposed to Homo Sapiens Eldalie or Homo Sapiens Hobbitus. Mortals doesn't work as well, because Hobbits are mortal, and so are most dwarves. Men are humans even if the term was not current in the earlier Ages. I am actually glad he used it. Too many people get the erroneous impression that Middle-Earth is another planet as it is. lol

In Reply To
Saruman states

"HE is jus...' a HUMAN Sorceror!"

Really?
Saruman has sum 'Esplainin'
to do!

BombyBadAss


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2013, 7:18pm

Post #10 of 22 (409 views)
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Yes, which is why I specified [In reply to] Can't Post

that he was distinguishing the Necromancer in this instance not as a Man, but from someone akin to the Istari and therefore not a concern, which is Saruman's point in that scene.

BTW, notice I also suggested the "man on Umbar" line...in my actual post.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 7 2013, 7:23pm)


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Apr 7 2013, 10:30pm

Post #11 of 22 (346 views)
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I am not so troubled by this line [In reply to] Can't Post

But it does give weight to the concern of some of us that the writers were not as careful this time with their language choice.


DisDwarfWoman
Rivendell

Apr 8 2013, 2:55am

Post #12 of 22 (310 views)
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Agandaur seemed kind of similar to... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the mouth of Sauron from the books to me. And wasn't he supposed to be some kind of sorcerer? Though I've also never heard of magical scrolls from the books.

I quite liked War in the North, but if you get a more accurate game together that would be awesome!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 8 2013, 4:48am

Post #13 of 22 (304 views)
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Yes there were. [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember the Witch-King of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgul? Aside from the name (which is a big hint Wink), according to Gandalf at the Council of Elrond, he was "a great king and sorceror of old". It seems to me that it is also said or implied elsewhere that the other Nazgul also practiced sorcery, as well as some of the Black Numenoreans.

Silverlode

Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram,' said Gimli, 'and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla.



Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Apr 8 2013, 9:38am

Post #14 of 22 (298 views)
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One thing I really didn't like [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that white council scene. It seemed quite weird to me. There was all of these wonderful wise people guiding middle-earth, yet they seemed to be talking absolute nonsense. There is no way that Saruman would have come up with such a line about a human sorcerer. Why couldn't he have just said a Nazgul like in the book? Gandalf would not have been remotely convinced by such a statement, and Saruman would have known this.


Felagund
Lorien


Apr 8 2013, 1:05pm

Post #15 of 22 (223 views)
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Sauron's necromantic followers - sorcerors by any other name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Morgoth's Ring (HoMe Volume X) there's a reference to Sauron having trained some of his followers to be necromancers. You could argue that necromancy isn't the same as sorcery. But on the other hand, unless we draw the unlikely conclusion that the followers in question were Elves, Dwarves, Orcs or other Maiar, it's probable that at least some of them were Men. This is the race that is consistently associated by Tolkien with overcoming mortality and bending the rules of the Gift of Eru.

The Silmarillion reference cited elsewhere in this thread is another case in point - "sorcerors of old" etc.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Apr 8 2013, 2:46pm

Post #16 of 22 (219 views)
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*facepalm* [In reply to] Can't Post

derp...

I used to be really good at this Tolkien trivia stuff...

rats! Here comes Galion to revoke my Mirkwood PartyElf Membership...

Go outside and play...


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 8 2013, 5:09pm

Post #17 of 22 (178 views)
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Can we say that all necromancers (in this context) are sorcerers, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...not all sorcerers are necromancers?

necromancy Literallly "corpse-divination". Attempting to speak to the spirits of the dead. Later meaning any magic that involves spirits, corpses, raising the dead, prolonging life, etc.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 8 2013, 5:10pm

Post #18 of 22 (173 views)
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Absolutely [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

derp...Tongue

were there human sorcerers in ME??????

I thought all the wielders of magic were Maiar and Elves and such....



Of course there were human sorcerors in ME. Don't you remember that part in the book when the Dunedain Rangers used their sorcery to trap the Nazgul in tombs? Wink


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 8 2013, 5:16pm

Post #19 of 22 (204 views)
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Because they changed the Nazgul's history in the film [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why couldn't he have just said a Nazgul like in the book?

He couldn't have said Nazgul, because according to the lore in the film universe, the Nazgul were supposed to have been entombed in the High Fells.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 8 2013, 5:24pm

Post #20 of 22 (185 views)
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it's a good point, though... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why did we have to have all this invented story of the Nazgul having been imprisoned? Why not simply have the WC think it's just one of Sauron's leaderless servants rather than Sauron himself, just as in the book?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






TFP
Rivendell


Apr 8 2013, 9:20pm

Post #21 of 22 (141 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... the mouth of Sauron from the books to me. And wasn't he supposed to be some kind of sorcerer? ...


yes, he was said to have, "...learned great sorcery".

also when Gandalf tries to get into Moria he says that he, "... once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs...", probably implying that men had spells.

lastly it's said that many men of Númenor, "...became enamoured of the Darkness and the black arts", which sounds like magic.


(This post was edited by TFP on Apr 8 2013, 9:21pm)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Apr 9 2013, 3:42pm

Post #22 of 22 (91 views)
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good insights.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Go outside and play...

 
 

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