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miriel and celebrian... parallels?
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Apr 12 2013, 8:54pm

Post #26 of 38 (549 views)
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Instead of strictly viewing it as Finwe favouring Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always looked at it as he stays with the child that is in greater need of his guidance and support.


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 8:58pm

Post #27 of 38 (547 views)
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thnx! CuriousG [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree; the answer is simple ... Finwe does what Finwe wants. What can one expect from a man who helps doom his own wife (the mother of his child!) to Mandos until the ending of Arda ... and perhaps even more. MadUnsure

Smile Anywayzz ... Wink If someone wants to read it, I recommend Oshun's Character Biography of Míriel Þerindë.

http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/references/pf/miriel-serinde.php

I find Míriel Þerindë fascinating … especially after reading the HoME series: ‘she was a Noldorin Elda of graceful and slender bodily form’ (born in Valinor), silver haired and dark-eyed (‘as a white flower in the grass’); ‘she had a beautiful voice (‘soft and sweet was her voice, and she sang as she worked, like rippling water, in music without words’) and a delicate and clear enunciation, though she spoke swiftly and took pride in this skill. Her chief talent, however, was a marvellous dexterity of hand’. ‘By her the craft of needles was devised; and if but one fragment of the broideries of Miriel were seen in Middle-earth it would be held dearer than a king's realm; for the richness of her devices and the fire of their colours were as manifold and as bright as the wealth of leaf and flower and wing in the fields of Yavanna.’

Fair, intelligent, clever, imaginative, talented, skillful, utterly obstinate, intellectual, loving, gentle and quietly steadfast, composed. Quite a nís, he? Sly Throw in a couple of flaws ...

Wink


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 9:04pm

Post #28 of 38 (544 views)
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possibly ... [In reply to] Can't Post

But ... afterwards Indis and he become estranged. Weird, ha?! Wonder why? And Indis ends up adoring Fingolfin.

Angelic Right about that time Feanaro and Nerdanel become also estranged. Like father, like son, he? Tongue


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 9:05pm

Post #29 of 38 (544 views)
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i don't necessarily question [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i don't necessarily question her wanting to give up her body.... that was choice #1. choice #2 was not wanting to return.

again, she speaks to finwe saying all her spirit, all she has, etc., has been put into feanor.

was that a choice? to transmit her talents, her fire to her son? if so, did she choose to transmit too much, more than elves usually do? was it a risk she was taking, or did she think it was no risk, just another act of creation from a very creative person?

those questions remain unanswered, and are very compelling to me.

i also wonder at physical pain so great in an elf in the blessed realm that could cause someone to want to leave her physical body.

additionally -- i think i just got an insight into feanor....

if you feel like people are abandoning, failing you always... well... your things will never leave you (in that way). he poured most of the love he could have had for people into his things, himself. precluding another abandonment incident.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 9:07pm

Post #30 of 38 (554 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, i too had previously interpreted finwe's actions as the doting father who see's child #1 in greater pain, so attends to him, doesn't really believe that child #1 would have killed child #2.

but i'm considering this in another light, which makes finwe look rather bad.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 9:32pm

Post #31 of 38 (604 views)
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I don't believe that she did... [In reply to] Can't Post

...because we have NO evidence for this particular event related to childbirth happening, indeed it is an oddity in the Elven and Valar experience. So I feel that is simply her way of explaining why she desires to depart the world (imitating the Gift of men...ever are the different Kindreds jealous of the other). So I simply don't believe it - the only word we have for the fact of this condition existing is her own. And she certainly has plenty of spirit later on once she is 'released' to sit about and do her beloved needlework...(was it Melian's halls she ended up in?) and was happy enough doing that. I just don't think she wanted to be Finwe's wife or Feanor's mother; I think she was an internally driven artist, and for whatever reason (maybe because her skill was so great and consumed her interest) she never properly bonded with a mate and a child.

So I don't think it was pain that drive her to want to leave - but a desire to live within and for herself and her art. (Haha, selfish, gifted, chilly, stubborn artist - SOUND FAMILIAR? I posted an idea like this in the thread about Feanor, because I see the groundwork for Feanor in Miriel; and reading JRRT's words confirm that for me.

So - try this Maciliel- if you read it with skepticism of Miriel's claim (like reading a crime drama) - see if it feels different then. I am interested on your take as such.....Smile

Edit by brethil: I now realize that Miriel did not do weaving but recording, and completely apologize for the misstatement.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Apr 14 2013, 12:05am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 9:38pm

Post #32 of 38 (536 views)
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hah! interesting task! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i accept. my mind is flexible, which is why i've been trying to see things from miriel's perspective.

i will do some thinking.

i do think, 'tho... whatever miriel's choices, finwe, feanor, feanor's sons, and so on all had choices as well. i think miriel's choices had impact, but at some point she is not responsible. like, she's not responsible for the kinslaying.

people are impacted by the actions of others, truly. but people also have the ability to craft their own choices. it gets very fuzzy, of course.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 9:42pm

Post #33 of 38 (536 views)
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also, just to add... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
if she just wanted to practice her art, she would normally have had to come back to her/a body. normally the fea hang out in mandos. i think her fea got special dispensation to hang out with vaire to do the weaving.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 12 2013, 9:54pm

Post #34 of 38 (536 views)
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I disagree wholeheartedly [In reply to] Can't Post

It's apparent from Laws and Customs that Miriel is choosing to be doomed to eternity in Mandos. She has no body, no needlework. So she's most certainly not abandoning her family to work on her art. It's only after the completely unforeseen death of Finwe that she's even released. And even then, it's only because Finwe offered to stay in her place.

I wonder where you're getting this idea, Brethil. It appears completely contrary to Tolkien's writings. Do I think she's at fault somewhat for Feanor's outcome? Yes, but so are any other number of factors.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 12 2013, 9:56pm

Post #35 of 38 (530 views)
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Choices [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree, Maciliel. I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on a parent for the child's choices. It ultimately is the child who makes the choices, not the parents.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


eminal.
The Shire

Apr 12 2013, 9:58pm

Post #36 of 38 (538 views)
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She was just a normal girl, though deeply and wonderfully talented, that got thrown into en unexpected situation ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... couple that with a not very understanding environment ... the result = a fiasco.

If I understood the LaCE correctly, conception and bearing of a child are a choice - both mother and father decide. And the child is considered a blessing granted by Iluvatar. So, the formula would be: mom plus dad plus a blessing equals baby.

Miriel is just exaggerating, I think. Like I said, she was confused and in pain. In those moments she is not mentally balanced ... everythin' came down crashing. I don't think she was required to exchange her life/soul for/to her son's/son. Her child was no ordinary baby; bringing forth a 'normal' baby is work ... Feanaro needed extra (and some more) parental work. By all accounts, he was a big baby (at birth) and the mother was a slender girl not used to physical exertion ... giving birth is painful ... couple that with a hard, taxing pregnancy ... ShockedFrown

She was just shocked by everything ... she was a very young girl (born in Valinor) and it was her first child. Basically she was not ready (mentally, bodily, spiritually) for such a task and this is why she was so 'spent'. There were two right and good options for her and the boy: to suck it up and continue living hoping that she would heal in time or to 'rest' for a time and come back to her son. Feanaro needed her deeply and badly. But she got scared (this i understand) and fled never to return (wrong).

Make no mistake, Feanaro is exceptional, a gift, but nobody was ready for such a child ... he is a puzzle to the Valar themselves. A little less selfishness from his parents would've been for A+ ... but we got a boy scared by the very people whom he revered and who were supposed to keep him out of harm's way. He doesn't learn to love selflessly ... add into that his personality ...


(This post was edited by eminal. on Apr 12 2013, 10:03pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 10:51pm

Post #37 of 38 (518 views)
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True, Feanor makes adult choices - which are his burden... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I see the root cause of Feanor's excesses - like his lack of ability to bond with other people, his self-absorption, and the guilt which I think altered his potential as all rooted in that choice of Miriel's. Absolutely he then made choices - but if we are talking about her choice, I think it is at the root of the Fall, especially with JRRT's own words to be considered.

As far as Miriel's eventual fate, it is outside the published Sil text - I thought it was in HoME - Morgoth's Ring (a volume I do not currently have, just replaced the first 5) as it was edited out of Sil by C. Tolkien. It's been years since I read it for myself, (but I remember her being granted a special dispensation partially because no one else quite knew what to do with her) so if I am incorrect in my memory, I do apologize - but I believe the essential point stands: her choice was made for inexplicable reasons, known only to herself, and had dire consequences upon the fates of the Elves.

I admit I am on the less-travelled side of the Miriel debate; I have simply never found her tale to ring true, because of the skepticism of so many others. And my literary gut tells me that when someone in Tolkien's works walks away from a blessing, no good can come of it, and there is something being said about that character.

I will do some more research later tonight to see if I can find the passages I remember reading, Ardamire. (Must run for now....RL calls....) Tongue

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 13 2013, 2:41am

Post #38 of 38 (553 views)
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Sweet! and another haiku comment... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i accept. my mind is flexible, which is why i've been trying to see things from miriel's perspective. i will do some thinking. Awesome - look forward to your thoughts, as always! Smile

i do think, 'tho... whatever miriel's choices, finwe, feanor, feanor's sons, and so on all had choices as well. i think miriel's choices had impact, but at some point she is not responsible. like, she's not responsible for the kinslaying.
True - curious though, at what point(s) do you see the shift in responsibility?

people are impacted by the actions of others, truly. but people also have the ability to craft their own choices. it gets very fuzzy, of course.
It does, especially with adult choices....I do like tracing history and seeing origins though.

cheers -- Cheers!!!
(And BTW the Bifur haiku is very powerful.)

.


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

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