Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Mirkwood Spiders
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

ByThorinsBeard
Rohan


Mar 23 2013, 8:16pm

Post #26 of 40 (215 views)
Shortcut
Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Axecrazy. I certainly hope I am wrong concerning Radagast's fate. I could see him surviving in the manner you described. I've got the Hobbit and LoTR here, but haven't read either in a while.

Personally, I feel Saruman is already turning by trying to push the Council away from the subjects of the Necromancer and the business at Dol Guldur. My own little bit of Speculating, but I could be wrong there too.

I do hope we get to see Radagast perform more magic, it was so cool to see.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.



axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 23 2013, 8:30pm

Post #27 of 40 (237 views)
Shortcut
I wasn't talking about the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I was talking about what was shown in the film. The spiders came from Dol Guldur. Therefore it is logical to conclude that Necromancer has some degree of control over them. Am I moving too fast here? -_- Not to mention Sauron and Morgoth were somewhat famous for breeding unnatural creatures for their own purposes. These spiders are new to the Greenwood if Radagast's dialogue with Gandalf is anything to go by. And where do you imagine they came from if not the dark depths of Dol Guldur?




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 23 2013, 8:44pm

Post #28 of 40 (208 views)
Shortcut
Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would consider it going against the books if it does happen. As others now have pointed out, his fate is left ambiguous... but I would think his death would have at least been mentioned somewhere in the appendices or the supplementary books. Given Tolkien's personal views on nature, I find it hard to believe he would be so cold toward the only wizard who made flora and fauna a primary concern. Not all are called to the way of the sword, and there is value in all people who do what they can in the face of evil. Gandalf would have thought and said much the same, in my opinion. What sort of gods frown on anyone who shows compassion toward living things who cannot defend themselves from Sauron's malice? Radagast may have forgotten his orders, but he did not forget his purpose. I imagine Yavanna would have a thing or two to say to the other Valar if they deemed him a failure in the company of Saruman. I also imagine Gandalf and Lady Galadriel would be his advocates in the Undying Lands.

In the books, Saruman, being a git and a traitor, probably considered putting an end to Radagast permanently, but found his talents of some use still and so delayed his malice until after he was sure of victory. That never happened because he failed to take the Ents into consideration.

And yeah, bring on more magical badassery for Radagast! He fought off the Witch King and delayed the Necromancer long enough to grab the morgul blade and run like hell. All of that was very impressive, and proved he's no push over despite his quirks.Cool




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


imin
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 10:50pm

Post #29 of 40 (187 views)
Shortcut
Would you class The Silmarillion as canon? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Glorfindela
Valinor


Mar 23 2013, 11:13pm

Post #30 of 40 (187 views)
Shortcut
I don't think I would like to see Radagast die [In reply to] Can't Post

The same applies to any of the wizards, really. There is going to be enough death of favourite characters, I think.


In Reply To
if Radagast does die sometime in the next two films, whether that would be going against Tolkien canon since he's alive in LotR.



ByThorinsBeard
Rohan


Mar 24 2013, 1:02am

Post #31 of 40 (171 views)
Shortcut
I like where you are going with this [In reply to] Can't Post

As I've said, I would hate to see Radagast die and I'm glad so many have chimed in on his ambiguous fate. Thanks for sharing Tolkien's views on nature, I did not know where he stood. I've always preferred nature based magicians/shaman so I can really appreciate what you're saying here.

I hope PJ and co. will honor that.

I love that Radagast is more of a force of nature than anyone expects. I'm thrilled we're seeing a lot of magic use here, I hope we see a lot more.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.



ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 24 2013, 3:28am

Post #32 of 40 (164 views)
Shortcut
Your sarcasm is not appreciated axecrazy [In reply to] Can't Post

The context in which you are talking about Morgoth now means you are referencing the books so whatever point you are trying to make is being undermined by your own argument.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 24 2013, 3:28am)


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 24 2013, 9:46am

Post #33 of 40 (131 views)
Shortcut
My argument still stands. [In reply to] Can't Post

And you are avoiding my questions. How then did the Mirkwood spiders come into being? And why did their trail lead back to Dol Guldur if, as you say, they have a separate 'purpose' of their own. My theory is based on general knowledge of the Enemy's methods revealed in the books, which is better than nothing at all. The Enemy is infamous for breeding fell and unnatural creatures in His service, such as the winged steeds of the Nine. His previous master in turn bred dragons. Both of them had close associations with giant spiders. In the movie, the spiders of Greenwood are identified as "some kind of spawn of Ungoliant". I'd like to know exactly why you think my theory is such a giant leap given these facts. I'd also like to hear your own theory on the matter.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 24 2013, 9:51am

Post #34 of 40 (127 views)
Shortcut
Yes, I would. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe not the Unfinished Tales, simply because it starts to introduce inconsistencies.

And because I love The Silmarillion more than TH and LOTR combined. Wink


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 24 2013, 10:09am

Post #35 of 40 (128 views)
Shortcut
No argument that in the movies they led to Dol Guldur. [In reply to] Can't Post

But you need to reread the books if you think Sauron and Morgoth had close associations with spiders. Ungoliant existed independantly of Morgoth for most of her life, aligned with him ever so briefly for one purpose then betrayed him. Shelob is specifically described as existing completely independant of Sauron so there is no asspciation there apart from the fact she lives on the borders of his land. If that is a qualifier for close association then the people of Ithilien and those formerly of Minas Ithil were closely associated with him.

If you are going to sarcastically ask me if you are going to fast for me because I referred to the books (heaven forbid) and you were talking about the movies (the implication is solely) then don't in turn quote the books.

As far as theory is concerned such dabbling hold little interest for me , I try to limit my discussions on lore. My intro to this site was a discussion about the Witch Kings power and someone theorising on what wasn't written instead of what JRRT specifically wrote on the matter. If I wnted to I could then theorise that Ungoliant was the spawn of Black Arachnia and Optimus Prime but thats as ridiculous as some of the theorising that gets pulled out of thin air while at the same time people ignore what JRRT actually wrote.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 24 2013, 10:16am)


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 24 2013, 10:30am

Post #36 of 40 (117 views)
Shortcut
Still avoiding my questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's leave the books out. What then? The spiders are a mystery we're not meant to question? The Necromancer is a sorcerer on par or more powerful then the wizards. Among their many talents they can speak to animals and breed terrible forms of life to serve their own ends (see the previous movies for numerous examples), if they incline their knowledge and powers that way. Hence the spiders. All they'd need is a piece of the creature in question to work with... a sliver of skin taken from a Lair perhaps. Simple enough.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Mar 24 2013, 11:06am

Post #37 of 40 (116 views)
Shortcut
Maybe list the questions you claim I am avoiding so there is no ambiguity. [In reply to] Can't Post

As for you last post unfortunately it has devolved into the purely speculative and almost incoherent with absolutely nothing that can be cited. I can't reply further for about another 18 hours but I do want to cobtinue this when I can.

I am happy to include the books but exclude them if you want to, your choice just let me know.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 24 2013, 11:07am)


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 24 2013, 1:18pm

Post #38 of 40 (108 views)
Shortcut
If you're trying to bait me it's not working [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been speculating on the origins and nature of the spiders seen in the movie. And I did exclude the books from in my last post. If you're not interested in what I have to say then don't bother reading or replying to my posts. Everyone will stay happy that way. Your attempt at getting the last word in won't work, and if you're expecting an apology then you're in for a long wait. Keep going though and I'll just blank my posts in response. I'm rather childish when it comes to getting that last word in.

The choice is yours, not mine. You replied to me, remember?




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 24 2013, 6:49pm

Post #39 of 40 (88 views)
Shortcut
And now let's let this be the last of this. [In reply to] Can't Post

This subthread ends here, thank you, the both of you have far better things to do than this no-win argument!

(Especially if you have access codes for a certain online event that's happening very shortly...Smile)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






imin
Valinor


Mar 25 2013, 12:33am

Post #40 of 40 (102 views)
Shortcut
Very interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to view canon this way but now see it all as canon so to speak - The Silmarillion was not published during JRR Tolkien's lifetime so this cannot in my mind be considered to be any more canon than say CoH or Unfinished Tales, HoME. All after his death and edited by C.Tolkien as you know.

I get what you mean though - The Silmarillion is consistent throughout (as is CoH) and so they could more likely be considered 'canon'.

I am reading back through some of the HoME currently and it just makes me think about it all in a different way - like real legends/myths i don't think there is ever a set of definitive canon material, it changes a little over time.

Prior to this though i did want to have some set canon material to work from and keep in my mind as 'truth'. I think it's really interesting what people consider to be 'canon' and not in Tolkien's works.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.