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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Reminder of how troubling this Gandalf as a sub-agent of Galadriel is.
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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 23 2013, 10:35pm

Post #76 of 84 (195 views)
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The dynamics of the White Council [In reply to] Can't Post

Lady Galadriel seems to have headed the previous Councils of the Wise, consisting of the greatest and wisest of the Eldar in Middle-earth. Unfortunately, we only really see Elrond and Galadriel in the films (with Cirdan the Shipwright being little more than a distant presence in the LotR movies). After the Istari arrive in Middle-earth, she invites them (or at least Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast) into the reformed White Council as equals with the specific goal to defeat Sauron and banish him from Middle-earth if he cannot be destroyed.

Galadriel does not want to resume leadership of the Council and wants Gandalf to head it. Gandalf, of course, defers to Saruman, who is already the leader among the Wizards, and so Saruman becomes the leader of the White Council--the first among equals. This becomes a problem later when Saruman is overcome by his own Ring-lore. He sees himself as superior to and more worthy than his fellow Council-members; he also convinces himself that the only way to truly defeat Sauron is with the Master Ring--which only he is worthy enough to wield for his own. Radagast loses sight of his primary mission in Middle-earth, being more interested in the beasts and the birds, and from that point has little to do with the Council.

I only wish that this dynamic was made more obvious to the viewer of AUJ. Maybe the next two fims will clarify things.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 23 2013, 11:55pm

Post #77 of 84 (198 views)
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If i had one complaint about the White Council [In reply to] Can't Post

as depicted in the film is that it was so small-- just 4 characters that we'd already met. I'd always imagined it being a larger, more formal meeting. More along the lines of the Council of Elrond, but maybe not quite so large. We needn't even meet all the members (also like the Council of Elrond), i just thought there'd be a little more to it. Maybe at their next meeting...


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 12:02am

Post #78 of 84 (182 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

According to my understanding, all of the Eldar who were part of the earlier Councils of the Wise should also have been members of the White Council. It should probably have been about twice as large as depicted on film (if not a bit larger).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 12:42am

Post #79 of 84 (173 views)
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I certainly wish we had seen Cirdan and Glorfindel at the least [In reply to] Can't Post

Though, the official Visual Companion says that the four present were the chief members of the Council, or something to that end, suggesting if not indirectly stating that there are other members. Perhaps we will see a full council in the upcoming film/s.

In Reply To
According to my understanding, all of the Eldar who were part of the earlier Councils of the Wise should also have been members of the White Council. It should probably have been about twice as large as depicted on film (if not a bit larger).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 12:44am

Post #80 of 84 (181 views)
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Gandalf actually deffered because he was not willing to be directly [In reply to] Can't Post

answerable to any summons etc. save to Eru and The Valar who sent him, not really as a way of demuring to Saruman.

In Reply To
Lady Galadriel seems to have headed the previous Councils of the Wise, consisting of the greatest and wisest of the Eldar in Middle-earth. Unfortunately, we only really see Elrond and Galadriel in the films (with Cirdan the Shipwright being little more than a distant presence in the LotR movies). After the Istari arrive in Middle-earth, she invites them (or at least Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast) into the reformed White Council as equals with the specific goal to defeat Sauron and banish him from Middle-earth if he cannot be destroyed.

Galadriel does not want to resume leadership of the Council and wants Gandalf to head it. Gandalf, of course, defers to Saruman, who is already the leader among the Wizards, and so Saruman becomes the leader of the White Council--the first among equals. This becomes a problem later when Saruman is overcome by his own Ring-lore. He sees himself as superior to and more worthy than his fellow Council-members; he also convinces himself that the only way to truly defeat Sauron is with the Master Ring--which only he is worthy enough to wield for his own. Radagast loses sight of his primary mission in Middle-earth, being more interested in the beasts and the birds, and from that point has little to do with the Council.

I only wish that this dynamic was made more obvious to the viewer of AUJ. Maybe the next two fims will clarify things.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 12:49am

Post #81 of 84 (170 views)
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Point taken concerning Gandalf... [In reply to] Can't Post

Although the effect is the same. Saruman is head of the WC.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 24 2013, 1:01am

Post #82 of 84 (171 views)
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i just didnt much [In reply to] Can't Post

care for the way Saruman was portrayed as a grump, and was talked over in secret by Galadriel and Gandalf. I doubt they would ever have done that, and Saruman was pretty powerful surely he would have known? His voice alone could influence men and Elves. It seemed out of character for Gandalf to roll his eyes at Saruman too, in FOTR Gandalf was full of respect for Saruman.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Mar 24 2013, 1:02am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 2:49am

Post #83 of 84 (168 views)
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True indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

And there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. And one of the oldest and most fell things ever to exist dwells in Moria, and is the impetus of the exiles of the Dwarves and the bane of sacred Durin, and I hope that is at least alluded to in these films, especially since they seem to be throwing EVERY irrelevant line but the kitchen sink in anyway. lol. Lay viewers have questions that need answering. lol

In Reply To
Although the effect is the same. Saruman is head of the WC.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 24 2013, 2:51am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 24 2013, 2:55am

Post #84 of 84 (214 views)
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I agree in part. I think they went a tad far in making him seem [In reply to] Can't Post

like a disregarded blowhard. That said, there is at least more precedence for this than there was for the lop sided interactions between Gandalf and Galadriel. Galadriel had grown wary of Saruman, Saruman did sometimes run on in condecension (though at this stage he was still masking his scorn for Radagast, so they may have overplayed that), and Gandalf could be very impertinent. Indeed, in at least one council meeting he does the magical equivalent of blowing smoke in Saruman's face.

In Reply To
care for the way Saruman was portrayed as a grump, and was talked over in secret by Galadriel and Gandalf. I doubt they would ever have done that, and Saruman was pretty powerful surely he would have known? His voice alone could influence men and Elves. It seemed out of character for Gandalf to roll his eyes at Saruman too, in FOTR Gandalf was full of respect for Saruman.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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