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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What's With the Attitude, Gandy? And Other Quirky Observations

The Grey Elf
Gondor


Mar 21 2013, 2:40am

Post #1 of 21 (1146 views)
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What's With the Attitude, Gandy? And Other Quirky Observations Can't Post

"He is here," says Gandalf in Bag End after three loud thumps on Bilbo's front door. Thorin is about to smolder his way into the premises, but his Grayness seems to utter those 3 little words with outright displeasure. I know the two characters aren't supposed to be chums but since Gandalf pretty much orchestrated the whole Erebor/dragon snuffing endeavor, that line reading just puzzles me. And how exactly did Gandalf expect a passle of dwarfs and one hobbit to destroy one of the most badass dragons ever? Anyone?

Observation deux - leaping to the end of the movie where Azog & co. tree the company. Our CGI villain makes a crack about Thorin's grampa reeking of fear. I thought he did this to taunt Thorin, but then what language was he speaking? How could Thorin have understood him? Or is the dwarf prince also multilingual like the wizard and this is why Gandalf becomes grumpy when his rival finally arrives at the party?

Finally, our company becomes a dwarf pileup several times in the movie and every time, Bombur winds up on top (excepting of course when it's the Goblin King's turn). Theory: the trolls' whole idea of squashing the dwarfs into jelly would never have worked because these blokes are as tough as jerky and therefore unsquishable.

Just my random impressions available for semi-serious discussion and debate : )


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:46am

Post #2 of 21 (600 views)
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I didn't note any attitude there. He seemed more proclaimative than displeased. However, [In reply to] Can't Post

his greeting to Radagast struck me as far too terse. The words were fine, but the tone was wrong.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


marillaraina
Rohan

Mar 21 2013, 4:26am

Post #3 of 21 (557 views)
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ROFL [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Theory: the trolls' whole idea of squashing the dwarfs into jelly would never have worked because these blokes are as tough as jerky and therefore unsquishable.


I love this. True! Otherwise the ones on the bottom when the Goblin King fell would have been well and truly squished, not only did they have the king fall on them, but the other two layers of dwarves and bridges. :)

And yeah honest, in some ways Gandalf really manipulated Thorin into this. It's kind of rich him getting all judgmental because he doesn't follow along all unquestioningly and docile.


Old Toby
Gondor


Mar 21 2013, 4:50am

Post #4 of 21 (540 views)
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A different perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought Gandalf's comment, "He is here," was said with displeasure at all. My feeling is that the way he said it reflected his somewhat strained relationship with Thorin and the fact that Thorin was not only the rightful King Under the Mountain (and therefore one of great importance) as well as the leader of the Company, but was also impatient, stubborn and intolerant at times. So although he was The Man who they were all waiting for, it wasn't going to be an easy entrance. And he wasn't sure how Thorin and Bilbo would get along. So I feel it was not displeasure at the prospect of seeing Thorin, but a certain wariness and a bit of dread.

Regarding the language Azog was speaking when talking about Thorin's father, there is nothing that indicates Thorin understood what he was saying. I would doubt he would understand the language; however, there is no doubt in my mind that he recognized his name and his father's name and the taunting tone in which it was said. Azog starts out speaking to his followers when he says, "Do you smell the fear?" or something to that effect. He wasn't speaking to Thorin. Then it seems to me he was more or less talking for his own purposes, not knowing or caring if Thorin understood, although he probably knew the effect he was having on Thorin just by his derisive, taunting tone. Certainly Thorin didn't need to understand the language in order to understand the intent.

Oh, and I totally agree with you about the unsquishableness of the dwarves!! After being landed upon by not just Bombur, but also by the Goblin King and still walk away, you had to have some major internal armor going! Wink

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

Mar 21 2013, 5:20am

Post #5 of 21 (491 views)
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old t. [In reply to] Can't Post

it's interesting that you say that about Gandalf. my rental recently passed over this scene coincidentally. i am seeing
how that reaction could be related to gandalf's relation to thorin and knowing how stubborn thorin is in his ways and how
serious this venture is to him and to his people. I am reminded of gandalf trying to make both parties accepting of eachother. It might
be a tough sell for gandalf. he asks bilbo what is wrong, when bilbo is frustrated with his company and gandalf replies that they are merely a 'merry bunch'....
as if gandalf was oblvious of how bilbo would receive these guests. the wizard seems to be feeling for a fit between the parties and he knows thorin will arguably
be the toughest sell. this reminds me of what you said about gandalf dreading the moment. things seem to be merry enough with sumptuous feast and merriment, never
getting to the matter of fact business of why theyre there in the first place, but things will have to get serious about hte mission and it is there that both parties will have to reconcile
whether they are good fits for the expedition. Gandalf in a way seems to have to sell his idea of a burglar to both bilbo and thorin. the wizard sighs right after thorin says bilbo looks like a grocer...
tough sell indeed. and thorin is taking this erebor expedition extra serious like when he talks of the quest at the table and then bilbo asks about this quest? and thorin's expression is like........
and then gandalf probably has to laugh it off and quickly jump in to inform bilbo what the heck is going on. perhaps gandalf's credibility is on the line regarding thorin with all this burglar talk. maybe thorin
doesn't think gandalf is taking erebor and his expedition seriously? could this be a possibility?


Old Toby
Gondor


Mar 21 2013, 6:32am

Post #6 of 21 (455 views)
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I like the way you put it [In reply to] Can't Post

when you say Gandalf has to sell his burglar idea to both Bilbo and Thorin. Two hard nuts to crack, I should think, in their own ways. But I think Gandalf is very good at orchestrating things if he put his mind to it, because he can sense and/or see things happening or that might happen; however he is subtle (and quick to anger...heh heh...as the saying goes). And I would imagine Thorin has a much different perspective on the quest from that of Gandalf, since for him it is totally personal. There is so much at stake for him, and it's a quest he has to undertake out of duty and honor and pride. I never really understood why Gandalf became so involved in this quest in the first place. Even after as many times as I've read The Hobbit, it still isn't clear to me. However it's clear to me that, in this film, Thorin really trusts Gandalf, although he may not always like what Gandalf says or does. He's not a blind follower of the wizard, but is willing to let him be their guide, at least for a while. (of course, Thorin is known for getting himself lost, so that may have something to do with it....LOL!)

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Arannir
Valinor

Mar 21 2013, 7:07am

Post #7 of 21 (491 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
his greeting to Radagast struck me as far too terse. The words were fine, but the tone was wrong.


I thought the tone was hilarious! Although he respects Radagast, I guess it can be quite a burden to deal with that character when you have so much on your Middle-earth-saving mind Wink


mefansmum
Rivendell

Mar 21 2013, 8:23am

Post #8 of 21 (440 views)
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Another alternative. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it is just that Thorin's arrival signals the end of the fun and games and that matters have to get serious.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 21 2013, 9:27am

Post #9 of 21 (412 views)
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This [In reply to] Can't Post

is exactly how i interpreted the line.


Angharad73
Rohan


Mar 21 2013, 9:37am

Post #10 of 21 (439 views)
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To me, Gandalf sounded a little apprehensive. [In reply to] Can't Post

And perhaps he was right in that. I mean, that whole 'Dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house' thing wasn't going too well, was it? Bilbo already was a rather unhappy Hobbit - and that was before he knew why the Dwarvish invasion force was even there. But it still was a bit of fun, you know, eating drinking, singing... With Thorin arriving in all his majestic grumpiness (or grumpy majesticity), the fun was over and it was down to business. Plus, Gandalf probably knew that Thorin was prone to being prickly and to rubbing people the wrong way, so - with Bilbo already being all worked up about the Dwarves - it would be even harder to shove the Hobbit out of the house and make him go on an adventure with the lot of them once he met the Leader of the Company.

Also, Gandalf looks kind of relieved once Bilbo and Thorin have met for the first time (that whole scene with conkers etc.), so maybe he anticipated it to be a lot worse...

I am not sure about Thorin's language skills... I didn't have him pegged as much of a linguist, really. Well, I suppose he is bilingual, so that's something. And maybe he has picked up a few words of whatever language Azog is speaking (Orcish? Gundabadian?). He seems to get worked up about Azog's taunting, but that might also be due to the mere fact that Azog still breathes. Plus it might be more a case of understanding the tone than understanding the words.

Not sure about the squishability of Dwarves. It might take some serious force because those guys really routinely land on top of each other without so much as breaking a rib. It might have needed a serious Troll pileup to squish them. Ewww. I don't think I really want to find out.


Shagrat
Gondor

Mar 21 2013, 9:38am

Post #11 of 21 (422 views)
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Azog mentions Thrain... [In reply to] Can't Post

Possibly that's enough to send Thorin over the edge. Or perhaps it wasn't words but just his mere despair at seeing Azog alive.


Glorfindela
Valinor

Mar 21 2013, 10:33am

Post #12 of 21 (423 views)
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Gandalf's attitude [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see Gandalf's attitude as reflecting displeasure, rather a certain kind of wariness a sign that the fun and games were over and serious business was now at hand. He knows that Thorin is not an 'easy' character by comparison to the other Dwarves.


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Mar 21 2013, 11:54am

Post #13 of 21 (405 views)
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Indeed, Gandalf would consider Bag End [In reply to] Can't Post

As yet another situation requiring him to exert his utmost diplomacy and charm, but he still has to surrender the floor to a certain I-don't-mince-words dwarf. I guess my observation has more to do with his kinda annoyed facial expression than how he says the words. ("Amused" yet, Gandalf? Wink)


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 2:45pm

Post #14 of 21 (355 views)
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yes, Gandalf had to really hammer the deal together [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
when you say Gandalf has to sell his burglar idea to both Bilbo and Thorin. Two hard nuts to crack, I should think, in their own ways. But I think Gandalf is very good at orchestrating things if he put his mind to it, because he can sense and/or see things happening or that might happen; however he is subtle (and quick to anger...heh heh...as the saying goes). And I would imagine Thorin has a much different perspective on the quest from that of Gandalf, since for him it is totally personal. There is so much at stake for him, and it's a quest he has to undertake out of duty and honor and pride. I never really understood why Gandalf became so involved in this quest in the first place. Even after as many times as I've read The Hobbit, it still isn't clear to me. However it's clear to me that, in this film, Thorin really trusts Gandalf, although he may not always like what Gandalf says or does. He's not a blind follower of the wizard, but is willing to let him be their guide, at least for a while. (of course, Thorin is known for getting himself lost, so that may have something to do with it....LOL!)


Axecrazy makes an excellent point. Additional text will make Gandalf's involvement clearer, Old Toby.
In the version of "The Quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales more detaiil is given as to Gandalf's mind, and how that evening in Bag End played out. Initially we read about Gandalf's worry about Smaug and his uses by the Enemy, when he runs into Thorin in Bree. As they speak a plan sort of "comes together" in Gandalf's mind, needing a Burglar, and he has long had his eye on Bilbo. The story of that evening is quite well represented onscreen, especially by Gandalf's reactions. And actually film Thorin is quite a bit softer than in the text! Gandalf has to broker Thorin into accepting "his darling" (Bilbo) and agree to accompany them to watch over him...and Gandalf has to persuade this older and now less-than-adventerous Hobbit out the door. It's really the production of the Map and the Key, and Gandalf's insight into Thorin's charactar by mentioning the lifelong friendship they would have if Thorin took Bilbo along, that makes it happen at all. This touches Thorin's Dwarven heart, and does inspire trust in Gandalf. (And neither text Thorin or film Thorin would ever blindly follow anyone!)

Gandalf's sigh and as he leans against the arch after Thorin meets Bilbo shows his fear that maybe Bilbo is not what he was, and the Thorin will not accept him. The same with the anxious looks as Bilbo reads the Contract. And "he is here" is sort of Gandalf's way, I think, of saying now the real work begins...

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 21 2013, 2:47pm)


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 21 2013, 2:56pm

Post #15 of 21 (339 views)
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Uh.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm axecrazy. He's Dwavenfury. Laugh Don't worry. I'm not offended in the least. Happens all the time with us Dwarves. Heck, even Thorin mixes Fili and Kili up sometimes. It adds to our charm... or something.




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 3:10pm

Post #16 of 21 (311 views)
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Ooops! Indeed was looking at dwarvenfury's post! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm axecrazy. He's Dwavenfury. Laugh Don't worry. I'm not offended in the least. Happens all the time with us Dwarves. Heck, even Thorin mixes Fili and Kili up sometimes. It adds to our charm... or something.


Apologies!!!! Haha! Looked at wrong post line I guess! I agree all you Dwarves have you particular charms!! Wink

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 21 2013, 3:12pm)


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 21 2013, 4:28pm

Post #17 of 21 (302 views)
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I may be wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

But I seem to remember their interactions in FoTR being even more terse and blunt. I've only just started reading the book again. I still remember Gandalf's account of his doings to the Council of Elrond pretty well, though. Ah, wait, here it is:

Radagast: Gandalf! I was seeking you. But I am stranger in these parts. All I knew was that you might be found in a wild region with the uncouth name of the Shire.

Gandalf: Your information is correct. But do not put it that way, if you meet any of the inhabitants. You are near the borders of the Shire now. And what do you want with me? You were never a great traveller, unless driven by great need.

Radagast goes on to tell Gandalf about the Nine being abroad, etc,etc. McKellen and McCoy's interactions are bang on, in my opinion. Gandalf is never condescending or rude toward Radagast, but is still slightly guarded when he shows up. You never quite know what will happen with Radagast around... like a stick insect coming out of his mouth for instance. Crazy




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.

(This post was edited by axecrazy on Mar 21 2013, 4:29pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Mar 21 2013, 4:37pm

Post #18 of 21 (278 views)
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True, and Gandalf is in a hurry [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Radagast goes on to tell Gandalf about the Nine being abroad, etc,etc. McKellen and McCoy's interactions are bang on, in my opinion. Gandalf is never condescending or rude toward Radagast, but is still slightly guarded when he shows up. You never quite know what will happen with Radagast around... like a stick insect coming out of his mouth for instance. Crazy


Gandalf looks like he might be thinking, good grief haven't I got enough to worry about with 13 Dwarves and a Hobbit and a Dragon to get mixed up in your business? And of course Radagast isn't quick about telling his tale, probably just as Gandalf figures.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


axecrazy
Rivendell


Mar 21 2013, 5:00pm

Post #19 of 21 (276 views)
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Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Pressing business with a very cranky dragon and all that. Smile Actually, it's sort of touching how Radagast goes running to Gandalf instead of Saruman. "I was looking for youuuu, Gandalf!" The way he said that said a lot about what he thinks of Gandy. He looks to him as a big brother, I think. Cool




There's no party like a Dwaven party. Believe it.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 22 2013, 5:33pm

Post #20 of 21 (169 views)
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I just thought genuine curiosity/surprise would have sounded more fitting, not [In reply to] Can't Post

the almost dissaproving tone he takes. Gandalf does not dissaprove of Radagast, and I don't think he would be annoyed by his coming, even if he took it as a sign of trouble in the wider wolrd.

In Reply To

In Reply To
his greeting to Radagast struck me as far too terse. The words were fine, but the tone was wrong.


I thought the tone was hilarious! Although he respects Radagast, I guess it can be quite a burden to deal with that character when you have so much on your Middle-earth-saving mind Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


ByThorinsBeard
Rohan


Mar 23 2013, 3:55pm

Post #21 of 21 (166 views)
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nicely said [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved their interaction, almost sibling-like.

Actually, I am very happy with Gandalf's mild case of cranky/defensiveness in this film (it adds so much needed humor). I think it revealed that Gandalf still has some things to learn as far as the denizens of Middle Earth are concerned.

Everyone has posted some nice thoughts on Gandalf's role, so I agree with much of what has been said.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.


 
 

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