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drogo
Lorien
Dec 13 2007, 12:25pm
Post #1 of 14
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Fog on the Barrow Downs V: Fatty Lumpkin and the Return of the King
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Now that the hobbits have recovered in the sun, Tom returns with the ponies and his own, Fatty Lumpkin. In his song he bestows new names upon them:
Hey! now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?
Up, down, near or far, here, there or yonder?
Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail and Bumpkin,
White-socks my little lad, and old Fatty Lumpkin!
How does Tom's naming affect the animals? Is this part of his divine nature?
The hobbits then put on their warmer closes, and begin to eat, a means of recovering from the horrors of the Barrow. As they eat, Tom goes back to the horde in the mound:
While they were eating Tom went up to the mound, and looked through the treasures. Most of these he made into a pile that glistened and sparkled on the grass. He bade them lie there 'free to all finders, birds, beasts. Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it. He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:
"Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!"
He then gives daggers to the hobbits, telling them they are blades of the Men of Westernesse, about whom he comments, "yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless." And as he speaks, the hobbits have a "vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them"—like a plain over which a procession of Men walk, the last one with a star upon his brow.
How does this scene recall other moments in Tolkien in which we see a hoard of treasures being plundered or dispersed (especially in The Hobbit), and what do these parallels suggest? What is the significance of sharing the plunder with the hobbits?
What do you think is the significance of the brooch he picks out for Goldberry? Why does Tolkien hint at a history behind it that we will never know, or do you have some theories (or Utterly Unsupported Theories) about this brooch? Is it just a little bit of business included to add to the illusion of historical depth?
How do Tom's words prepare us for the introduction of Aragorn in the next chapter? Again, how can we account for this both a naturalistic and a "magical" point of view? How effective is this bit of foreshadowing, if we can call it that, of the return of the new king at this early stage in the book (and how many of you remembered this reference)?
Tomorrow we'll conclude the chapter.
(This post was edited by drogo on Dec 13 2007, 12:26pm)
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visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 13 2007, 3:56pm
Post #2 of 14
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How does Tom's naming affect the animals? Is this part of his divine nature?
They're rather "hobbitish" names, aren't they? Fatty Lumpkin always makes me think of Fredegar "Fatty" Bolger. Beside the obvious "Fatty", Bolger (> Bulger, see the Nomenclature) has much the same meaning as Lumpkin. To me, this helps reinforce Tom's quasi-hobbitish nature, his dealings with Farmer Maggot, the bridging of The Hobbit to the early stages of The Lord of the Rings, etc. It's interesting that the ponies take to their new names and answer to them ever after. I'm not sure I'd call it Tom's "divine nature" or anything quite so supernal, though. To me, it's more a natural (or preternatural) affinity with living things, perhaps recalling Doctor Dolittle (for echoes of Dolittle in The Hobbit, see Rateliff's History of The Hobbit, pp.266–8).
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 13 2007, 5:20pm
Post #3 of 14
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How does Tom's naming affect the animals? Is this part of his divine nature?
I always thought that Tom simply knew their names, rather than giving them names. But if Tom chose the names, then he seems to know the ponies well, for he does not give them arbitrary names (like Bill), but descriptive names (like Sharp-ears).
This is quite typical of Tolkien's own method of naming. Often Tolkien's names are descriptive rather than arbitrary, and fit the person or place that they name far better than most names fit in the Primary World.
Is this part of Tom's divine nature? Tolkien hints that Tom's names have power, although it could just be that he's good with ponies.
How does this scene recall other moments in Tolkien in which we see a hoard of treasures being plundered or dispersed (especially in The Hobbit), and what do these parallels suggest?
In The Hobbit, of course, the dwarves, elves, and men nearly went to war over Smaug's treasure. Bilbo's gift of the Arkenstone may have helped break the spell the treasure held over the dwarves, although it took an army of orcs to really unite the free peoples. Bilbo was always generous with his treasure, and that may be one reason why he resisted the Ring so well, and was even, with Gandalf's help, able to give up the Ring. In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien says that gold held a heavy concentration of Morgoth's taint, perhaps accounting for its power over greedy souls, as well as its attraction to dragons and, in this case, wights.
What is the significance of sharing the plunder with the hobbits?
Sharing the plunder breaks the spell of the treasure. But giving the hobbits daggers, in particular, also marks their rebirth as adventurers, and perhaps as knights. And Tom chose wisely. I wouldn't be surprised if Tom knew that these particular weapons were crafted to fight the Witch-king, who is now the leader of the Black Riders, although he says nothing of that to the hobbits.
What do you think is the significance of the brooch he picks out for Goldberry? Why does Tolkien hint at a history behind it that we will never know, or do you have some theories (or Utterly Unsupported Theories) about this brooch? Is it just a little bit of business included to add to the illusion of historical depth?
It doesn't seem complicated to me. Tom apparently knew the woman who wore that brooch, and Goldberry will remember her by wearing it. It goes with Merry's memory of being killed in battle, the story of the fortresses that rose and fell in this location, and the stories in the Appendices. And yes, it does give the story depth.
Apparently Tom doesn't think much of burying treasure with dead bodies. He would rather give the treasure to the living, so that they may make use of it, or remember those who have passed. But Tom isn't greedy. He just takes one momento with personal significance to him, and leaves the rest for whoever comes by. (I wonder who did come by. That might make a nice bit of fan fiction!)
How do Tom's words prepare us for the introduction of Aragorn in the next chapter? Again, how can we account for this both a naturalistic and a "magical" point of view? How effective is this bit of foreshadowing, if we can call it that, of the return of the new king at this early stage in the book (and how many of you remembered this reference)?
I'm not sure how many first-time readers would connect Tom's words with Strider. And it is a very long time before we see Aragorn wear a "star" on his brow. But this is great for second-time readers, and I do think this kind of foreshadowing makes an impression on first-time readers, even if they cannot connect all the dots.
Foreshadowing helps the reader anticipate what is to come, as well. Tolkien's constant foreshadowing raises expectations that many of these riddles will be answered, and that we will find out who the man with the star on his brow really is. And so we do, although we might have to read the whole epic a second time to connect what happens in Book I with what happens in Book V or VI or even the Appendices.
It's like a puzzle that is so complicated we cannot grasp it all the first time we look at it, but must come back to it again and again. But even the first time we look at it we may find such a puzzle fascinating for the promises it holds, the promises that if we spend enough time studying every nook and cranny of the puzzle, we will be able to figure it all out.
That's the frustrating thing about Bombadil. He is a prominent part of the puzzle that refuses to be figured out, and it's not even clear that Tolkien had an explanation in mind. But it is a testament to Tolkien's ability that Bombadil is the exception, not the rule.
C.S. Lewis's Narnia is a more typical fantasy. What is Father Christmas doing in the same world with fawns and dryads? Don't ask. Compared to Tolkien, most fantasies are a jumble and a hodgepodge of whatever suits the author's fancy, with little rhyme or reason.
(This post was edited by Curious on Dec 13 2007, 5:23pm)
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drogo
Lorien
Dec 14 2007, 1:26pm
Post #4 of 14
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Sorry, I am in the midst of grading finals (with a deadline looming), so the end of the chapter will be posted on Saturday along with the open discussion.
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 14 2007, 3:55pm
Post #5 of 14
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"He then gives daggers to the hobbits, telling them they are blades of the Men of Westernesse, about whom he comments, "yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless." And as he speaks, the hobbits have a "vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them"—like a plain over which a procession of Men walk, the last one with a star upon his brow."
This part of your post got me thinking and as a result I have some questions to add to your discussion!
Does anyone know how many other times in LOTR is an experience described as a "vision?" There are many "seeming" moments, as I learned when I picked that as a topic when we did a series of Thematic Discussions in the RR. But how many clear "visions" like this are there? Is a "vision" more "real" than a "seeming" moment?
I also find the wording curious in this particular vision -- the hobbits have a vision of a great expanse of years "behind" them -- that seems to be vision of the past -- but if the man with "a star upon his brow" is Aragorn, then this is also a vision of the future. Just how exactly are the hobbits experiencing time here?
Hopefully those of you who aren't still holiday shopping will come along with some insights into these questions, or the good ones drogo asked in his root post as well. Thank you!
Weaver
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 14 2007, 6:14pm
Post #6 of 14
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Their minds were overflowing with the visions of their day.
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The Shadow of the Past
He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.
Frodo gazed fixedly at the red embers on the hearth, until they filled all his vision, and he seemed to be looking down into profound wells of fire.
In the House of Tom Bombadil
Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold.
Fog on the Barrow-downs
The vision melted into waking; and there was Tom whistling like a tree-full of birds; and the sun was already slanting down the hill and through the open window.
The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. Then the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world.
Each of the hobbits saw in his mind a vision of the cloaked and booted Riders.
Many Meetings
Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him; and the firelit hall became like a golden mist above seas of foam that sighed upon the margins of the world.
He came unto the timeless halls / where shining fall the countless years, / and endless reigns the Elder King / in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; / and words unheard were spoken then / of folk of Men and Elven-kin, / beyond the world were visions showed / forbid to those that dwell therein.
The Mirror of Galadriel
Like a dream the vision shifted and went back, and he saw the trees again.
'Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them.'
Doubt came into Frodo's mind: was this a vision of Gandalf on one of his many lonely journeys long ago, or was it Saruman? // The vision now changed. Brief and small but very vivid he caught a glimpse of Bilbo walking restlessly about his room.
The vision faded, and Frodo found that he was looking at the cool stars twinkling in the silver basin.
Farewell to Lórien
Already she seemed to him, as by men of later days Elves still at times are seen: present and yet remote, a living vision of that which has already been left far behind by the flowing streams of Time.
The Breaking of the Fellowship
Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote.
The Riders of Rohan
He seemed to have grown in stature while Éomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone.
The Uruk-hai
Every now and again there came into his mind unbidden a vision of the keen face of Strider bending over a dark trail, and running, running behind.
Treebeard
The boles of the trees glowed with a soft green like young grass: early spring or a fleeting vision of it was about them.
The Passage of the Marshes
The dark shadow had passed, and a fair vision had visited him in this land of disease.
The Black Gate Is Closed
He remembered his vision from afar upon Amon Hen, so few days before, though now it seemed many years ago.
The Window on the West
'A vision it was that you saw, I think, and no more, some shadow of evil fortune that has been or will be.'
'But lest you still should think my tale a vision, I will tell you this.'
The Forbidden Pool
'Until that time, or some other time beyond the vision of the Seeing-stones of Númenor, farewell!'
The Pyre of Denethor
'The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless, often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind.'
The Tower of Cirith Ungol
In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him.
The hideous vision had seemed so real to him, half bemused as he was still with wound and fear.
But now the vision had passed.
Mount Doom
One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed.
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision.
Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on breast, his breath coming in great gasps, and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground.
A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed.
The Field of Cormallen
As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandalf stirred; and he turned, looking back north where the skies were pale and clear.
Homeward Bound
Most of the things which they had to tell were a mere wonder and bewilderment to their host, and far beyond his vision; and they brought forth few comments other than: 'You don't say'; often repeated in defiance of the evidence of Mr. Butterbur's own ears
The Scouring of the Shire
Even Sam's vision in the Mirror had not prepared him for what they saw.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 10-16 for "Fog on the Barrow-downs".
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 14 2007, 6:59pm
Post #7 of 14
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Aragorn has almost certainly already worn the Star of Elendil, since he is the Chieftain of the northern Rangers. It is the Crown of Gondor which is in his future.
This vision seems similar to the experience the hobbits had in Bombadil's house, when he was telling tales all day. The fact that all four of the hobbits apparently have the identical vision makes it less ambiguous than other visions, I suppose.
As for other visions, the most famous are Sam's altered visions of Frodo and Gollum, once outside of Mordor, and once on Mount Doom. But Sam has other visions as well, as does Frodo, including the visions in Galadriel's mirror.
Do Merry and Pippin have visions unshared with Frodo and Sam? The only one I can think of is Pippin's vision of "the keen face of Strider bending over a dark trail, and running, running behind" when Pippin was captured by orcs. But that could have been Pippin's thoughts, rather than a sending, although it turned out to be true. Note that Galadriel did not invite Merry and Pippin to look in her mirror.
How real are any of these visions? It depends on what you mean by real. Some of them are not true, as for example when Frodo sees Sam as an enemy because Sam has the Ring, or when Sam sees Mordor as a garden because he is wearing the Ring. Others are true but don't really happen -- Aragorn doesn't really line up with all his ancestors on a vast plain. Others could be explained as natural, as for example Pippin's vision of Aragorn tracking him. Others could be a poetic way of describing the experience of an enraptured audience, as when the hobbits have visions in Bombadil's house, or Frodo has visions in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell. Some are described as visions but probably aren't, as when Faramir sees Boromir's body floating by.
I don't see much difference between waking visions and dreams in LotR. In both cases there's a fair amount of ambiguity about what they mean, whether they are sent, why they are sent, etc. Remember that Merry describes their whole adventure as a dream, while Frodo describes returning to the Shire as the dream. Indeed one might argue that it is often in visions and dreams that the characters see what is real, while what they think they really see is often an illusion.
After all, which is the real Aragorn, the majestic man with the star on his brow, or the scruffy-looking ranger apparently skulking in the corner of a bar? Which is the real Ring, the beautiful band of gold that entrances all who look at it, or the Ring of Fire at Frodo's breast? Which is the real Sam, the small, scared hobbit, or the Elven Warrior a scared orc thinks he sees? Which is the real Gollum, the animal-like creature everyone describes, or the old hobbit the omniscient narrator shows us for a moment on the stairs the Cirith Ungol? Which is the real Glorfindel, the elf they first see, or the creature of light Frodo sees at the Ford? Which is the real Frodo, the middle-aged, burdened hobbit, or the beautiful, transparent creature with light shining through him which Gandalf and Sam and perhaps Gollum see when Frodo sleeps?
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SilentLion
Rivendell
Dec 14 2007, 7:57pm
Post #8 of 14
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Grading finals, that is.
Wish I could have included a question about Beren's and Curious' "Conservation of Spirit in Middle Earth" discussion, but it wouldn't have gone over too well in a Wireless Communication Networks class.
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 15 2007, 2:19am
Post #9 of 14
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But I do thank you for finding all of those...
I am too tired to make any observations, great or small, about this list -- but I am sure there are some to make about the different times and ways in which Tolkien terms things in "visionary" terms.
I am going to save this list for a future, slow board day discussion...unless the rest of you want to have a go at it now.
Thanks again, NEB!
Weaver
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 15 2007, 2:29am
Post #10 of 14
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After all, which is the real Aragorn, the majestic man with the star on his brow, or the scruffy-looking ranger apparently skulking in the corner of a bar? Which is the real Ring, the beautiful band of gold that entrances all who look at it, or the Ring of Fire at Frodo's breast? Which is the real Sam, the small, scared hobbit, or the Elven Warrior a scared orc thinks he sees? Which is the real Gollum, the animal-like creature everyone describes, or the old hobbit the omniscient narrator shows us for a moment on the stairs the Cirith Ungol? Which is the real Glorfindel, the elf they first see, or the creature of light Frodo sees at the Ford? Which is the real Frodo, the middle-aged, burdened hobbit, or the beautiful, transparent creature with light shining through him which Gandalf and Sam and perhaps Gollum see when Frodo sleeps?
Thanks for all of your thoughts and comments on the use of visions by Tolkien in LOTR -- I particularly like the part I quoted above.
Perhaps it's best "not" to figure this kind of thing out -- but to accept that the truth in the above kind of pairings is both, all, some and more of the things you listed. Tom may be the biggest enigma of LOTR, but the kinds of questions you asked above make me realize how much that "enigmatic" thread is present in a lot of other ways, sometimes blatant, sometimes subtle, etc. Like your thematic discussion on "saying goodbye", which pointed out how all the numerous, smaller farewells throughout the book contribute to the melancholy tone of the story, all the times that Tolkien gives us information that is not fully explained, but just presented as a "vision", is part of the tale's charm as well.
Weaver
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 15 2007, 3:53am
Post #11 of 14
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The first plundered treasure in The Hobbit is the trolls' treasure trove (say that three times fast). From that hoard came gold as well as weapons that are heirlooms of ancient history. Like the mysterious men of Carn Dûm (what did I just do to my font?)
and the mysterious lady with the blue brooch, the details of the history of Gondolin and its siege and defeat are distant and hazy, at least to us.
Where's Frodo?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 17 2007, 4:53pm
Post #12 of 14
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I look on these more as "perceptions" than "visions", although there's a fine line between the two! But "perception", to me, signifies a kind of discernment, an ability to see something beyond the surface, and is a bit more - tangible? - than "vision".
And all these descriptions are indeed "true", for they relate to the different natures one person or thing can have!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 17 2007, 5:26pm
Post #13 of 14
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But that is exactly the point.
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I look on these more as "perceptions" than "visions", although there's a fine line between the two!
In Tolkien's world I'm not sure there is any difference between the two. In Middle-earth perceptive people "see" with another sense than pure physical vision, and what they "see" with this other sense is often -- although not always -- more "real" than what they see with their eyes. Unperceptive people also "see" with another sense than pure physical vision, but in their case they are usually unaware of it, and what they "see" is often distorted.
Indeed I question whether there is any such thing as objective eyesight in Middle-earth, except for what Eru "sees." Everything seems colored by the person doing the seeing, by the person being seen, and by any third party or force which may be aiding or distorting what is "seen." And this is true of the other senses as well, which may account for why the hobbits find Bombadil's plain water so appealing, and Gollum finds lembas so poisonous.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 18 2007, 2:37am
Post #14 of 14
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That's an interesting concept: all these perceptions/visions are the reality of Middle-earth, and it's a reality wherein there is no one single defining point for each person/thing. Not sure if I've stated that well, but I understand what you mean!
And if this is the case, then it must be that it's only logical that Bombadil and Goldberry appear to each individual in that manner which is most appropriate for their comprehension. Hence, the Hobbits see a creature who is similar to but larger than them (greater authority), bears some resemblance to Maggot with his beard and boots (wisdom), and speaks to them with such words of Power as can be easily "absorbed" by their mental facilities. That is their "reality" of Bombadil.
How'd I get talking about him again...?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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