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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What is going to happen with Thranduil now...? (Spoilers)
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Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 5 2013, 1:36pm

Post #26 of 37 (205 views)
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no sorry you are wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduil was heading for the Mountain with a small guard not an army to investigate not invade. On the way he heard about the plight of the people of Laketown. He could have ignored them, but he deviated his route and sent scouts ahead to find out the situation, once he knew the situation he sent Elves back to Mirkwood to gather many supplies for the people of Laketown. thus saving many lives. He assumed the Dwarves were all crispy fried by Smaug and obviously wanted to investigate and maybe a share of the wealth. He is a king it would be his duty to gain wealth as the Elves did not participate in agriculture they had to buy all their goods from Laketown. They needed gold to trade.
As for imprisoning the Dwarves, I think people have conveniently forgotten the Necromancer was active in Mirkwood at this time. As far as Thranduil knew they could have been servants of his enemy, up to no good, but because the Dwarves were stubbornly silent he was suspicious as any king would be. He had a duty to protect his people from the Necromancer and other enemies.


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 5 2013, 2:00pm

Post #27 of 37 (195 views)
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Investigate? Duty? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, but I think we have very different opinions on this matter.

"Thranduil was heading for the Mountain with a small guard not an army to investigate not invade. On the way he heard about the plight of the people of Laketown."

Why does he need to investigate matters that are no concern of his, in a land way beyond his borders? He already made it clear what he thinks about tresspassers in his own lands, but marching over lands not belonging to him is totally cool?

"He could have ignored them, but he deviated his route and sent scouts ahead to find out the situation, once he knew the situation he sent Elves back to Mirkwood to gather many supplies for the people of Laketown. thus saving many lives."

Yes, only after witnessing the destruction of Laketown did he help them out. That was never the intention. As for the heroic Elves he brought with him to fetch supplies for Laketown, well, that is only partially true. He did bring them supplies but he also brought a huge army on Thorin's doorsteps. If helping Laketown was all he wanted, why does he need a vast host of armed warriors with him?

"Smaug and obviously wanted to investigate and maybe a share of the wealth. He is a king it would be his duty to gain wealth as the Elves did not participate in agriculture they had to buy all their goods from Laketown. They needed gold to trade."


That's the problem right there. The "share of the wealth" does not belong to him. None of it. He wants the wealth for himself, Tolkien even stated that Thranduil was envious of other Elven lords with more money and treasures than he had and that his greatest weakness was his obsession of gems and precious stones. As for "duty" - I just can't see it. And I don't think agriculture had anything to do with it...


"As for imprisoning the Dwarves, I think people have conveniently forgotten the Necromancer was active in Mirkwood at this time. As far as Thranduil knew they could have been servants of his enemy, up to no good, but because the Dwarves were stubbornly silent he was suspicious as any king would be. He had a duty to protect his people from the Necromancer and other enemies. "


A bunch of beggar-dwarves, starving without food (for days) un-armed? And why would they speak out about their private plans to their captor? If Thranduil thought that the dwarves were servants of the Necromancer, then he's not very bright.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 5 2013, 2:00pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 5 2013, 2:27pm

Post #28 of 37 (193 views)
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Dwarves and Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

had always fought over jewels, its hardly something particular to Thranduil and Thorin. After Thingol had been murdered by the Dwarves and the Simaril stolen, I imagine Thranduil was a bit touchy about Dwarven claims on jools. Especially if he thought the Dwarves were dead. I imagine he thought he could use the treasure for his people as nobody seemed to own it, and better that the Elves have it than the orcs or other foul creatures. Thranduil supported Bards claim on the treasure, he could have taken all the treasure but he didnt he let Bard take it for the reconstruction of Dale so why you think he was there for war and plunder I really cant understand. Thranduil conducted himself honourably throughout.


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 5 2013, 3:42pm

Post #29 of 37 (176 views)
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I never said he was there for war and plunder. [In reply to] Can't Post

I said he was there for the treasure, and he brought his armies to back up his non-existant claim.

I suppose this is the part when I say "agree to disagree", because this isn't going anywhere, I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me Cool



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 5 2013, 9:58pm

Post #30 of 37 (166 views)
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About captors. . . I must disagree. It matters how they treat, though I agree the isolation [In reply to] Can't Post

was definitely a cruelty in and of itself. But a captor who feeds you and gives you all of the requisite creature comforts is a good deal better than one who treats you to torment. There is a difference, and it DOES matter. That said, The Elves could have been better captors, and Gloin had a point in saying that they had been less kind to his folk than they were to the wretched Gollum. The Elves should have had a courtyard for the prisoners to go out into. One would think the nature and star loving Elves would have thought of such a thing. Also, the solitaire was cruel. But, in the film version Kili and Fili at the least may be getting conjugal visits from an Elf named Tauriel. . . and I can think of many who would volunteer to be imprisoned under those conditions. Lmao. WinkTongueLaugh If Gimli is an indicator of Legolas' tastes, Gloin might also be getting a visit from an Elf. Blush Laugh All right, now I am just being incorrigable. Au revoir.

In Reply To
I agree with Macfolk. I never liked the Elvenking in the book. Sure it's nice he gave them food and water and didn't beat them, but he STILL imprisoned them.

They were not attacking the elves, they were trying to get help and the elves disappeared every time they showed up. It was dark and confusing in the woods, they were starving. Unlike the elves who were in their home territory and familiar with the woods. The elves themselves show little compassion for them if they kept disappearing and didn't even try to talk to them.

Now I understand they weren't omniscient and may have thought they were being attacked, but as I said, they are elves, they are familiar with the area, it would not be terribly hard to figure out it was a just a group of 13 starving dwarves who maybe they could VOLUNTEER to help, had they bothered to make even a small effort to figure out what was happening. Even if they were being attacked, you'd think they'd want to "know their enemy" and if they'd done that it would have pretty easy to see it was 13 fairly clueless very hungry dwarves..

If the elves, and Thranduil in particular, are so "wise and king" then IMO the normal "human" reasons for such behavior cannot be used to excuse their behavior.

Imprisoned is imprisoned, it doesn't matter if the captors are "nice" they are still captors. More, the dwarves were at least semi-isolated and Thorin himself was essentially in solitary confinement not near any of them. That is rather cruel in itself considering how important and companionship appear to be to the dwarves.

Sure Thranduil went to help Laketown, but he had ZERO business having anything at all to do with the trouble regarding getting a share of the treasure that had belonged for Dale, or frankly, getting any kind of "repayment" for himself, because that suggests he didn't help them out of the kindness of his heart but because he figured he'd get it back, so no skin off his nose and it would make him look good, keep the wheels of commerce flowing easily between them.

If he was so serious about not going to war for gold, then he should NOT have been there when the battle started. He should have refused to take part and left. In hindsight it may be good he was there(extra hands when the wargs and orcs and goblins, etc showed) but there was no way of knowing that would happen to start with. But it wasn't his fight.

I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.

Obviously Thranduil was not evil or a bad guy, but even in the book I thought he was a real first class jerk and quite greedy himself and in fact rather lacking in what seemed like real compassion.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Mar 5 2013, 9:59pm

Post #31 of 37 (179 views)
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A thought on Thranduil that doesn't have much to do with his future [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduil does that odd head tilt that Legolas did LOTR, especially when he was trying to comprehend the emotions of mortals. Must be in the genes. Smile


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 5 2013, 10:00pm

Post #32 of 37 (163 views)
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Also, Thranduil was very fond and respectful of Gandalf, and that is a mark of good character [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

In Reply To

In Reply To
but Thranduil didn’t tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks.


Quite right!

The Elvenking was gentler than many a mortal ruler, who would regularly put all poachers of the royal woodland (where the king himself did hunt) to the sword, no matter whether they were starving or not.

And he’s the one who quite nobly proclaimed:
But the Elvenking said: “Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows.”
And remember, too, Bilbo at the end:
He had taken his stand on Ravenhill among the Elves — partly because there was more chance of escape from that point, and partly (with the more Tookish part of his mind) because if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, he preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking.
What could be clearer?

Both the Hobbit and the Elvenking withstood the dragon sickness much better than the Dwarves, who seemed particularly susceptible. Do not forget that
They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.
Tolkien’s position on his Elves here is unambiguous.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 5 2013, 10:01pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 5 2013, 10:06pm

Post #33 of 37 (158 views)
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You fail to take into account the power of a pretty face. lol. And of enchanting presence. [In reply to] Can't Post

How often do people give leeway or prefference to people and even animals that they find beautiful (even when it is not sexually motivated), where otherwise they would not? The studies show that the answer is very often. Bilbo had always been fascinated by Elves, and upon meeting them found them as magical and lovely as he had dreamed. They didn't have to do anything to gain his fondness other than exist and NOT be particularly wicked. lol

In Reply To
I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


marillaraina
Rohan

Mar 6 2013, 12:50am

Post #34 of 37 (134 views)
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Actually that's kind of my point [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo's reasons for doing so were not really reasons at all. Being beautiful really is just a shallow thing and thus Bilbo's reasons were ultimately shallow. There was no real reason, other than aesthetics. Frankly it's no better or even really no different than the dwarves love for gems and gold. It's a shallow thing.

(And given the dwarves were originally born from stone - they are kind of their relatives. LOL).

Oh yes I agree obviously it's better if a captor feeds you than if they beat and torture you, but it's still captivity. I mean it's sort of like saying hey "It's really not so bad to be a slave if your master treats you well, what's so bad about it? Why aren't you nicer and more thankful to your nice master?" Because hello...he's still your "master" and you are still his "slave".


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 6 2013, 12:58am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 6 2013, 1:14am

Post #35 of 37 (129 views)
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They were reasons. Whether or not they were good reasons is another matter. [In reply to] Can't Post

But, as with The Council of Elrond taking so much notice of Frodo, Gandalf is one good reason. If Gandalf will share a tent with you and not seem full of ire in the process, and will stand with you, you cannot be all bad as Bilbo would note.

Bilbo's reasons may have been based on superficial things. That doesn't stop them from being reasons. Lots of people do silly things based on naught but being enchanted. . . or bewitched. lol

And, yes, it is still captivity. . . but it STILL makes a big difference. Political correctness should not trump truth. lol. Life and financial institutions may yet enslave us all. Feanor felt The Valar were holding him and his people captive. Much good his freedom did him. This is by NO means an advocation of anyone being imprisoned or enslaved. Both are horrible, but there are degrees to horror, and it is inaccurate to pretend otherwise.

In Reply To
Bilbo's reasons for doing so were not really reasons at all. Being beautiful really is just a shallow thing and thus Bilbo's reasons were ultimately shallow. There was no real reason, other than aesthetics. Frankly it's no better or even really no different than the dwarves love for gems and gold. It's a shallow thing.

(And given the dwarves were originally born from stone - they are kind of their relatives. LOL).

Oh yes I agree obviously it's better if a captor feeds you than if they beat and torture you, but it's still captivity. I mean it's sort of like saying hey "It's really not so bad to be a slave if your master treats you well, what's so bad about it? Why aren't you nicer and more thankful to your nice master?" Because hello...he's still your "master" and you are still his "slave".


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dik-dik
Lorien


Mar 6 2013, 1:29pm

Post #36 of 37 (126 views)
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Re: Thranduil in DoS [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the films he and Thorin know each other, so no wonder Thranduils knows what he, Thorin, and his companions are going to do in Erebor, or maybe he doesn´t know.
So I guess the whole interrogation scene in Thranduil´s palace will change.
Thoughts?


I'm wondering about that too; namely, on what grounds he imprisons the group (does he have no guilty conscience when recalling the past events?). I guess there'll be an epic snarling quarrel between Thranduil and Thorin, and I can totally imagine the latter doing a spinoff of the book universe 'hungry' argument, given that Thranduil effectively left the Dwarves to die of hunger in the wilds in the movie prologue. Except... I'd be surprised if the team included something as non-epic as simple starvation.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for a plausible imprisonment reason that doesn't lower my opinion on movie-Thranduil any more than movie 1 has. The Elvenking could mention the Silm. stuff included in The Hobbit and LotR books themselves, or think that the Dwarves have allied with evil forces from Dol Guldur... just no more unexplained meanness for me, please. Unsure

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Mar 6 2013, 11:06pm

Post #37 of 37 (124 views)
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Bilbo and the elvenking [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly think that Bilbo stood with the elvenking for a couple reasons:

1. He had always been fascinated by elves
2. he had seen Thorin go mad (and Thorin banished him so it would be risking death to join the dwarves)
3. He undoubtedly felt very guilty for stealing food from the elvenking's halls during the dwarves' imprisonment (a feeling that was proven when Bilbo "paid" the elvenking for his "er, hospitality" with the emerald necklace after the battle
4. He had little understanding of politics and as such probably was not as aware of the strife between elves and dwarves, or if he was aware probably didn't understand it as it was not in his capacity as a kind, gentle soul of a hobbit to understand complex things like hate and greed and gold lust
5. His treatment in Rivendell may have led him to assume that all elves are generally nice and wise, and thus his first impression may have misled his impressions of Thranduil
6. He may have been impressed that they elves were willing to aid the people of Laketown and also aid in the battle.

All in all, I believe that Bilbo did not understand a lot of the complexities that we do (as more learned and outside observers who know the whole story), and as such his decision to stand with the elvenking during the battle is something that I would understand from his perspective, even if I personally think that Thranduil isn't the "perfect" elvenking that Bilbo believes him to be (meaning I think he is a bit of a greedy jerk too-and perhaps his personality is too similar to Thorin's and so they may see each other's faults in the other and are far too alike to get along!)

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm

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