Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Driving Out Sauron from Dol-Guldur

Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 4:06pm

Post #1 of 20 (1525 views)
Shortcut
Driving Out Sauron from Dol-Guldur Can't Post

We've had many discussion about how this will be played out on the screen. At the time we see the fortress of Dol-Guldur it hasn't yet been rebuilt, so I favor that this will be more of a magical assault by the White Council that will take some form. Overt magic isn't PJ's style, but he's already done a lot more with Gandalf in AUJ than he did in LOTR in terms of 'offensive power'.

I also ran across something that is in Fellowship but supports some of the speculation on whether or not Saruman helps at all. There is the passage (paraphrasing badly here) where Gandalf explains that 'it was by the devices of Saruman' that Sauron was first driven from Dol-Guldur. I realize that is book canon, not movie canon, and may not happen at allowever, even Christopher Lee's frailty can be worked around by filming his section with body doubles, etc. as has been suggested. It would be nice to see him reluctantly disclose something he has studied about Sauron and his arts that allows them to do this. Tolkien of course, didn't describe what it was that allowed them to do it. What form of wizard action this will take, I ahve no idea. Some people hated the wizard fight in FOTR, but I was okay with it. It explains something I could't really visualize (how Gandalf got captured in the first place)

If Saruman does get involved in the effort to drive out Sauron and/or any minions, he might do it to increase his own status and power. Given the rampant speculation on how Galadriel/Gandalf and Radagast would be involved, it might even make more sense if he has to step in and reluctantly help out if Gandalf is truly injured, and there's any rescuing/carrying.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Feb 21 2013, 4:39pm

Post #2 of 20 (995 views)
Shortcut
Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman should be THE force, but not the reason, behind Sauron being forced out of Dol-Guldur.

It not only follows the book, but it adds to the complexity of the characters and plot. It'd be very interesting to see Saruman force Sauron out only to join him later.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 4:45pm

Post #3 of 20 (1040 views)
Shortcut
Saruman's role [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think that Saruman should have a more completely spell-based role in the assault. We may see a "putting forth of power" in the sense of a storm covering the physical entry of the ground force, perhaps lightning strikes in front the forward advance. That seems more like his strength AND humor, as he is really an force of intellect and not an active Wanderer. That's why he has a fixed abode with a big chair.

Would be very fitting to see him "communicating" with telepathy to coordinate his spell work with eyes on the ground (rather like Batman's detective mode ha.) That would work just fiine for Christopher Lee's filming to date, as it would be distant from combat and probably seated

(Gazing through the Palantir, as well as psychically listening in? Perhaps finding out some tasty snippets of information from the thoughts of the Necromancer?) That's Saruman style. With friends like that....

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


utku
Rivendell


Feb 21 2013, 5:31pm

Post #4 of 20 (1070 views)
Shortcut
My essentials for Battle for Dol Guldur would be [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel, Radagast and Saruman. I think Galadriel is necessary because we need to see her power in one way or another, and her nuclear state or telepathic powers don't feel enough. Istari and elves respect her and I think it's the perfect opportunity show why. Otherwise it feels like they are going against the whole "show don't tell" thing. Radagast because he's been portrayed as silly in AUJ and I think the primary reason is that we needed to see why Saruman doesn't take him too seriously, but once he's proven right, Radagast needs to step up show us that he is a "very great wizard".

Now the interesting bit: Saruman. I believe the only reason he is needed in the assult is to establish his relationship with Sauron. We don't need to see him blowing up rocks because we already see much of his powers in LotR but his betrayal should not feel forced when we watch the series in canonical order. Maybe we can get to see how he obtains the Palantir? I know it is against the canon, as far as I remember Palantir was already in Orthanc when Saruman came to possess it, but I like the idea that he finds it in the ruins of Dol Guldur, knowing that Sauron intended him to find it. Or maybe not but I just want Saruman's treachery to come as a twist for those who see The Hobbit trilogy first. So anything to establish that would be welcomed by me.

I don't think Elrond is necessary, however if we are going to see the rest of the White Council there, why not... Also I know if it was going to happen we would have heard it by now, but I just wish we got to see Haldir of Lorien as well. If there are going to be elves in the assult, Haldir should lead them. Then again, it's most probably not happenning.


Ffnir
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 6:25pm

Post #5 of 20 (970 views)
Shortcut
It would be uncanon but cool if Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

found the palantir in dol guldur after Sauron has fled. It would be the perfect connexion between the two trilogies.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 7:24pm

Post #6 of 20 (909 views)
Shortcut
I really like your idea with the Palantr! :D [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 7:31pm

Post #7 of 20 (927 views)
Shortcut
Ground Force [In reply to] Can't Post

The place is in ruins, I don't really see the need for a large ground force, but we'll see.

The other thing I didn't touch on was Galadriel's power. This is purely defensive.Her power derives from her ring, and that's not what it was made for. I just don't see her doing anything like what Saruman could do. As you suggested, storms, lightning, and other effects from afar would be in character for him.

The palantir idea is interesting, too


DanielLB
Immortal


Feb 21 2013, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 20 (896 views)
Shortcut
I always liked the idea that ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman moved into Orthanc in the first place in the hope of finding a palantir there. Plus it gives more depth to his treachery. But hey, it's a change I could live with.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Feb 21 2013, 8:02pm

Post #9 of 20 (892 views)
Shortcut
Ground Force... [In reply to] Can't Post

[Sorry, but that makes me think of Charlie Dimmock and Alan Titchmarsh giving Dol Guldur a make-over... Crazy Tongue]

Yeah, as much as I hate changes to canon, I concede that it makes sense for PJ to go down that route with the discovery of the Palantir at DG.

Though I don't believe Saruman angled for custodianship of Orthanc entirely due to the Palantir being there. The concensus was that it was unsafe to use them after the fall of Minas Ithil, and indeed, Saruman did not give in to temptation and look into the stone until c3000...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Feb 21 2013, 9:14pm

Post #10 of 20 (893 views)
Shortcut
In Fellowship, Saruman is given significant power [In reply to] Can't Post

when he awakes the spirit of the mountain when the fellowship is trying to cross. Now, casual viewers wouldn't know/interpret that at all, as it looks like Saruman is conjuring a storm over the mountain. Also, it is implied he is significantly more powerful than Gandalf in this scene, as Gandalf is not effective. It would be a fairly easy jump for the screen writers to assume that Saruman could face Sauron as well, which is a problem for me personally with the Dol Guldur idea, as no Istari is really equipped to face Sauron in their forms as men. A similar scene would be easy for Lee to film, as all he would have to do is stand there with his arms outstreteched in front of a green screen. I could see this happening in the Hobbit, with Saruman watching from afar (not on top of Orthanc of course) with Galadriel and Gandalf being more proactive.

"Are you mad? You'll never out run them, those are Gundabad warns!"
"And these are RHOSGOBEL rabbits! I'd like to see them try."


Bombadil
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 9:58pm

Post #11 of 20 (862 views)
Shortcut
Palentir at Dol Guldur guestion.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bomby suggested that months ago
BUT.. If he does... that
leaves Sauron
Without one?
Why would he have TWO?

Just how many Palentir
are there?


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Feb 21 2013, 10:41pm

Post #12 of 20 (849 views)
Shortcut
Seven Stars and Seven Stones... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and One White Tree! Smile

As I hinted at in my post above, Sauron's stone is the Ithil Stone captured from Minas Morgul...

Of course, the fact that PJ ignored Denethor's possession of the Arnor Stone seems to suggest he felt that the general audience could not cope with there being more than 2 Stones in the LotR movies...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Feb 21 2013, 10:42pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 11:42pm

Post #13 of 20 (841 views)
Shortcut
I think part of the problem is that Peter has not had a great penchant for visualizing [In reply to] Can't Post

magical displays and battles. The Saruman vs. Gandalf fight could have been better. As it was, it hearkened very much to the battle of the witches in Willow. I didn't hate it at all, but there could have been more to it.

I have gotten the notion that Peter's primary visualization of explosive/fire/lightning magic was fire streaming from eyes and fingertips, or sparks flying from wands, and understandably he didn't like the notion. I don't think he properly considered the more creative ways of showing truly astonishing displays of magical power, but other movies have managed it well in recent years, and he may have taken notice.

In Reply To
We've had many discussion about how this will be played out on the screen. At the time we see the fortress of Dol-Guldur it hasn't yet been rebuilt, so I favor that this will be more of a magical assault by the White Council that will take some form. Overt magic isn't PJ's style, but he's already done a lot more with Gandalf in AUJ than he did in LOTR in terms of 'offensive power'.

I also ran across something that is in Fellowship but supports some of the speculation on whether or not Saruman helps at all. There is the passage (paraphrasing badly here) where Gandalf explains that 'it was by the devices of Saruman' that Sauron was first driven from Dol-Guldur. I realize that is book canon, not movie canon, and may not happen at allowever, even Christopher Lee's frailty can be worked around by filming his section with body doubles, etc. as has been suggested. It would be nice to see him reluctantly disclose something he has studied about Sauron and his arts that allows them to do this. Tolkien of course, didn't describe what it was that allowed them to do it. What form of wizard action this will take, I ahve no idea. Some people hated the wizard fight in FOTR, but I was okay with it. It explains something I could't really visualize (how Gandalf got captured in the first place)

If Saruman does get involved in the effort to drive out Sauron and/or any minions, he might do it to increase his own status and power. Given the rampant speculation on how Galadriel/Gandalf and Radagast would be involved, it might even make more sense if he has to step in and reluctantly help out if Gandalf is truly injured, and there's any rescuing/carrying.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 3:20am

Post #14 of 20 (766 views)
Shortcut
What would you envision? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am very interested in how you picture the actual representation of the magic in use. Especially from Gandalf's perspective, how would you like to see the use of power portrayed? Is there a particular visual/cinematic reference or is your image more text based?

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 3:31am

Post #15 of 20 (770 views)
Shortcut
It depends on the scene. I have said, that regarding the pinecones, I would have liked to have seen more blue [In reply to] Can't Post

flame, as with the book, and also keeping with the bulk of Gandalf's displays of light magic in the movies having a blue colour. I would have liked to have seen them have an effect more like the blue flame he used to dislodge the slab of rock in Goblin Town, though to lesser degree in the case of the pine cones.

I am really hoping we get to see him face The Nine, perhaps in Dol Guldur, as something of a lifted scene of the scene in the Fellowship novel, where he fights them all atop Amon Sul, but which was left out of the Fellowship film. Here they might cross elements of that scene with the Warg scene in Caradrhas (also absent from the movie Fellowship), i.e. he tosses up (or down) a burning brand or nearby torch, and causes it to explode into blue flame that sweeps the area, perhaps in a radial/cyclic fashion. As Radagast was attacked by the Nazgul in An Unexpected Journey outside, we might also see him call down the odd lightning bolt, in keeping with the lines from Fellowship about the flashes of lightning seen on Weathertop from afar by Frodo and Aragorn.

I completely understand Peter not wanting any of the magic to come off like sparks of light shooting from wands, i.e. much of the Harry Potter magic, and I agree. However, there were also examples of great, well presented magic in the latter Potter films. If he follows that, Biblically Epic avenue of magical presentation (consider Dumbledore's flame wave {though it need not be THAT overwhelming] in Potter 6, or Saruman's Storm in Fellowship or "Arwen's" horse waves and you get a picture, you achieve powerful magic that is obvious and yet also awe inspiring rather than laughable or tacky.

Gandalf arriving in Goblin Town in this film was a good example.

In Reply To
I am very interested in how you picture the actual representation of the magic in use. Especially from Gandalf's perspective, how would you like to see the use of power portrayed? Is there a particular visual/cinematic reference or is your image more text based?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Slim
Rivendell


Feb 22 2013, 7:09am

Post #16 of 20 (756 views)
Shortcut
Good examples [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I like magic to be as subtle as possible, with hints at things that you cannot see or feel. Maybe sound can help 'suggest' magic. I like it when they leave quite a bit to the viewer's imagination.

For me:
- Loved the magic battle on the Bridge of Khazad-dm in FotR
- Loved the Nazgul-repelling light in RotK
- Loved the glowing rune on Bilbo's door
- Loved Gandalf's arrival in Goblin Town

- Arwen's horse waves were great on the first viewing, but on subsequent viewings I thought the horse shapes could perhaps have been a bit subtler...

- Did not like the wizard duel between Gandalf and Saruman at all. They could have used darkness and sound, and have Gandalf sink to his knees or something if they really needed a showdown.

- Now that you've mentioned blue, I wouldn't have mind a tiny bit of blue during the Trollshaws rock-splitting scene :)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 5:28pm

Post #17 of 20 (695 views)
Shortcut
Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the insights. Must admit I will have to look on YouTube or ask my nieces for Potter info, as I just have never been able to watch them.

The scene between Gandalf and the Nine would be powerful, especially with the panoramic blue flame seen from afar sweeping throught the air.
{Signing "Gandalf is here...")Smile

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 22 2013, 5:55pm

Post #18 of 20 (706 views)
Shortcut
HP image [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a pic of Dumbledore doing his thing. All the flame on screen has been caused by his waving of his wand in a wide arc. In the context of the scene, this is saving him and Harry from a gruesome army of the undead.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5EwtdRv4zCU/TRTKOlWh0II/AAAAAAAAAGk/aliE1e99fJ4/s1600/dumbledore-hbp-cave.jpg


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 10:30pm

Post #19 of 20 (682 views)
Shortcut
Thank you so much Arithmancer [In reply to] Can't Post

Appreciate the link! Simply haven't finished any of the HP films.

That's quite an image. Change it to blue flame and the silhouette of Gandalf's hat and it would be stunning. We will have to see how they produce it to avoid straight-out duplication, but still produce something inspiring to see and befitting Gandalf.

I see in checking the time line in Appendices that Saruman in text canon would not have used the Palantir yet (rrrrgh going to check BEFORE I post can't keep timelines straight anymore). Still see him as a distant force.

Wonder if any Orcs as a defense will be present or if its purely Council vs Necromancer and Nine. (?)

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 25 2013, 5:00pm

Post #20 of 20 (660 views)
Shortcut
It's very different in terms of magic [In reply to] Can't Post

This kind of thing worked well in HP because the movies had long established the wand magic, so even no fans expected it. No such standard of magic has been established in LOTR, it's much more elemental in nature. Now, that said, There's various ways you could assault a palce like Dol-Guldur with magic, earthquakes, etc. However, we're not talking an assault by ground troops since I don't think there's going to be any orcs there. In fact, if I were a garrison in a tumble-down ruin and I saw those wizards showing up, I'd head for the forest.

So, it remains to be seen what they will do. Saruman and Gandalf are really the only wizards that have used much offensive magic either book or film.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.