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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
So, we've seen Dwarf-women. How about Orc-women?
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Tintallë
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 7:19pm

Post #26 of 48 (358 views)
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Yes, right next to the analysis of bunny mushing! ; ) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 21 2013, 7:38pm

Post #27 of 48 (359 views)
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I love it when TORNadoes apply their real-world expertise [In reply to] Can't Post

to Middle-earth situations. Geek brilliance, every time. :D

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Feb 21 2013, 8:15pm

Post #28 of 48 (365 views)
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Maybe we've seen them [In reply to] Can't Post

Who's to say that we haven't already seen female orcs? They're a bestial warrior race. Maybe there isn't that much difference between males and females, at least not to the extent that someone of another species would recognize. If dwarf-women have beards and are often indistinguishable from dwarf-men, maybe orc-women are heavily muscled and just as ugly (by human standards) as the males.

Most female orcs would likely stay at home in Mordor or Angmar or Gundabad, breeding and raising little orc-lings for the Dark Lord's armies. But I wouldn't be surprised if some can fight and serve on the battlefield. Under layers of armor and lost in a mass of fellow orcs, a female orc might blend in. We may have seen some and not even known it.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 21 2013, 9:00pm

Post #29 of 48 (343 views)
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Just what I need. [In reply to] Can't Post

An excuse to write a full manuscript on "Sexual Selection and Sexual Dimorphism in the Orcs of Middle-earth". Bit tricky tackling such a thing without ever having seen a female -- or, for that matter, without even being completely positive that females exist! Would likely be substantially more interesting than, say, this manuscript I'm trying to review on the effects of internal parasites on the physiology of a South American toad species. Urgh.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 21 2013, 9:21pm

Post #30 of 48 (339 views)
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:-) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Where do you come up with this stuff, Ro?!

In my alternate life, I teach it. Well, not in orcs, at least not yet. I could wax eloquent on sexual selection all day long, not that anyone would care to listen (even good students only manage an hour). Ask me something practical like name the capital of Greece, or whether or not the linguistic variation amongst Tolkien's elves gives his legendarium greater depth and quasi-historical credibility, and you'll get a blank stare. I've got Mr. Ro around to expound on those things. Anyways, Old Toby, thanks and glad you enjoy my random musings. Smile I agree about the cannibalism. I figure they don't have a problem with that. But, you know, in species where cannibalism is common, it's often males eating offspring of potential mates that were not sired by that male (if he eats the young, the female becomes receptive sooner, thus speeding up the process of him siring offspring). Cannibalism tends not to occur when the eatee is related to the eater. Not sure how to apply that to orcs. Might suggest they tend to live in completely unrelated groups. Males disperse, females stay home? And I had forgotten about the enormous size of the Great Goblin. His ginormous size suggests, actually, he ought to be the only male in Goblin-town, and that every other goblin in there ought to be female. Or else he's just a really, really big mutant.


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 10:29pm

Post #31 of 48 (399 views)
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A mutant goblin.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that's something to wrap your head around! Shocked

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 21 2013, 11:30pm

Post #32 of 48 (335 views)
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Half Troll is much more likely. [In reply to] Can't Post

She never would have survived a mating with a Balrog, and it is unlikely that a Balrog would have deigned to stoop to it. Azog looks like he came from a Boldog line. And it must not be forgotten that not all matings of orcs were with orcs. Early on, the matings of Boldogs (as a type, the least of the Maiar demons incarnate as monstrous, sorcerous, master orcs), would almost certainly have been primarily with captive Elves, and some of the matings of later, "true" orcs would have been with Elves as well, and subsequently in later years and ages with humans. Indded, that is how Saruman really engineered the Uruk-Hai.

In Reply To
So I NOW
need
to see
the Goblin King's
mom!

WAT..wazz She
Half-Balrog...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lio
Lorien


Feb 22 2013, 12:03am

Post #33 of 48 (332 views)
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Heck, why not show the whole Azog family picture album? (And also Dis!) [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, they do have three movies to fill! That would be quite the warm fuzzy scene. Heart

And Dis! I completely forgot about her! Although I think it's mentioned somewhere (in the AUJ Visual Companion, I believe) that Fili and Kili were raised by Thorin, so perhaps something has happened to her. Shocked I guess it's possible that she'll be mentioned later on, although I don't think they'll go that deep with the backstory. Plus we've had enough tragic line of Durin flashbacks to last the entire trilogy. Laugh

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Lio
Lorien


Feb 22 2013, 12:09am

Post #34 of 48 (308 views)
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Nice find with the Moria Orc! [In reply to] Can't Post

So apparently we already have a semi-official appearance of an Orc-woman, if the source is accurate that the character in the display was sculpted as a female. Aww, isn't she cuddly? Wink

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Tintallë
Gondor


Feb 22 2013, 12:35am

Post #35 of 48 (303 views)
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Ah, but you'd be "first author" [In reply to] Can't Post

in more than one respect! Unsure


(This post was edited by Tintallë on Feb 22 2013, 12:36am)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 22 2013, 9:12am

Post #36 of 48 (269 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are looking at the situation entirely from a human perspective. I think a male leopard for example, would have much more problems distinguishing a male and female human from each other, that he would having to distinguish a male and a female leopard.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 22 2013, 2:53pm

Post #37 of 48 (267 views)
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Um, well we are humans after all.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think you are looking at the situation entirely from a human perspective. I think a male leopard for example, would have much more problems distinguishing a male and female human from each other, that he would having to distinguish a male and a female leopard.


so yeah, I'd expect we'd see things from a human perspective? Even speculating how other species view us or themselves is seeing them from our human perspective. Okay, got off on a tangent here. Just thinking about what you said. But I see your point, that animals within a species probably would be able to better differentiate each other than those from other species, particularly the gender differences.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 22 2013, 2:56pm

Post #38 of 48 (264 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

that is what I meant.
But orcs are humanoids, so I think humans would be able to see the difference between their genders, just as they are able to when it comes to elves and hobbits (and probably dwarves, if it were not for the beards).

EDIT:
On the other hand, one could argue that humans and elves are not seperate species, but merely different races or subspecies within one species. This due to the fact they are able to 'produce' vertile offspring when 'crossbreeding'.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''

(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Feb 22 2013, 2:58pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 4:53pm

Post #39 of 48 (255 views)
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Wow. Didn't see this til today [In reply to] Can't Post

A simply beautiful analysis, Ro!

With female sexual selection as a driving force - I guess Azog has won The GundaBachelor, a Genghis Khan among orcs. Somehow I think that wherever those (ugh...shudder) females are there must be simply tons of them to exlplain such a massive population. Goblins too. Wonder what their gestation period would be....seems like Elves and Dwarves would have longer gestation periods which can partially explain their slower growing populations so perhaps Orcs can churn out a pup every four or six months?

If they are able to breed with Elves and humans as suggested then they are certainly related species and of the same genus. This would place Firstborn, humans and Orcs in an ancestral line. (Would guess Hobbits are in there too.)

And if the babies are cute (?)- I would think they'd get eaten or stomped something. Might be evolutionarily prudent to be snarly and butt-ugly if you are an Orc baby.

New Orc fighting strategy. Bring out a hot Orc chick (again...shudder) and watch them all kill each other.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 22 2013, 8:13pm

Post #40 of 48 (243 views)
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The GundaBachelor! LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right; I'd guess gestation in orcs and goblins is substantially shorter than in Dwarves and Elves. Good point.

I used to teach a course in which one of the exam questions I asked students was to do a cladistic analysis of the sentient beings in Middle-earth. We used various primitive and derived characters (ears: pointy or rounded; feet: hairy or otherwise; breath: fire-breathing or not; etc.), with was it orcs or ents as the outgroup? I forget. Anyways, it was fun.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 10:44pm

Post #41 of 48 (222 views)
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I would SO take your class! [In reply to] Can't Post

That rocks!

Then we could discuss cow and monkey boogers too. And studly hairstyles. And DWARVES. Where were you when I was in college?!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 23 2013, 5:59am

Post #42 of 48 (247 views)
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sexual dimorphism... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I didn't know that female and male animals look the same. Let's see...

Birds: peacock and hen (only one is colourful)
Mammals: deer and hind (just one with a pair of antlers), lion and lioness (only one with a mane)
Insects: mantis and male (female is much larger than the male)
Spiders
: black widow and male (female is much larger than the male)
Fish: white shark and male (female is much larger than the male)

Why all this? Because I think IF there are female orcs you might be able to notice their gender. Perhaps it is not easy but I met men who looked like women and women who looked like men ;) But I prefer the idea that orcs, uruks, trolls and goblins have no gender. They were bred or/and corrupted creations of Morgoth and Sauron. They were created to destroy, fight and kill and not to build their own civilizations what they did when neither Morgoth nor Sauron was there after the Battle of the Last Alliance. They built Gundabad and they built Goblin Town.


Female hawks, eagles and owls are larger.

Kili fish (yes, KILI-fish) Striped Killifish. Scientific: Fundulus Majalis: male: vertical stripes, female: horizontal stripes (seen a bunch of these in the wild in my favorite paddling spot, Assateague island VA)

reindeer and caribou: both have antlers, but late in the season (late winter) the ones with the pokey things on their heads are female...

horseshoe crabs: males' first pair of legs are shaped like boxing gloves, females' like tweezers...

domestic goats: males stinketh (really, they do)

I like the idea of orcs have no gender...or perhaps they are like earthworms (hermaphrodites). Or like some fish which change gender when the oldest alpha female dies off.

Or like seahorses, where the males give birth.

Nature is weird. Corrupted Nature has to be weirder.

Go outside and play...


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 23 2013, 9:33am

Post #43 of 48 (208 views)
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Probably... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That rocks!

Where were you when I was in college?!



I was sitting in a classroom just like you were. Wink

I've always tried working Middle-earth into my lectures. Mostly my students have just thought I'm crazy, but I get the occasional ones who really appreciate it. They also learn that they can easily sidetrack me from the day's lecture by asking questions about Middle-earth, drat them. We've practiced chi-square tests analyzing hair color in different kinds of elves. We've done the cladistic analyses that I mentioned earlier. I've often given a one-minute spiel at the start of lecture on Today In Middle Earth (a la gramma's TIME posts). I take any excuse I can. Smile


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 23 2013, 10:01am

Post #44 of 48 (205 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

orcs were descended from men and elves, so having no gender does not really make any sense...Wink Obviously, orcs would qualify as primates, or at least mammals. And there are no mammals without a gender.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2013, 5:14am

Post #45 of 48 (192 views)
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smellovision [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I'm just having one of those brainfarts where I go...

do male orcs ssssstink and for the same reason as goats?????????


eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Unimpressed

I do not want to contemplate their existence as mammals and orc milk....

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Tongue

Go outside and play...


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 24 2013, 5:25am

Post #46 of 48 (195 views)
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Okay now, Swordwhale [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...and I'm just having one of those brainfarts where I go...

do male orcs ssssstink and for the same reason as goats?????????


eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Unimpressed

I do not want to contemplate their existence as mammals and orc milk....

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Tongue



that is just....disturbing. Wink

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 24 2013, 5:33am

Post #47 of 48 (191 views)
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uh, yeah.... [In reply to] Can't Post

gonna go make some goat cheese now... really...

Go outside and play...


Maciliel
Tol Eressea

Mar 4 2013, 1:54am

Post #48 of 48 (196 views)
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one of the orcs in the return of the king [In reply to] Can't Post

one of the orcs in the return of the king has always struck me as female. the voice also is of a higher register.

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