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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf, Radagast (the Istari in general) and Galadriel, going forward. Hoping Phillipa Boyens et al remember that The Lady is sacred, but the Wizards Divine.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 22 2013, 7:21pm

Post #26 of 29 (63 views)
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Can you cite writing [In reply to] Can't Post

that states Gandalf was meant to be subservient to the people of ME. I have only ever read that he was meant to inspire them, kindle the fire of resistance against Sauron. Even as Gandalf the White he was a counsellor not a leader, at least in the books. He did "lead" the Fellowship (as the Grey) but this was as a guide and advisor to their course of actions and never as a ruler with subordinates, and certainly never subservient to them.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 11:26pm

Post #27 of 29 (54 views)
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Rather wrong on several points, I fear. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ever the apologist for all notions of the film team, my friend Wink. lol. Well, to each his own.

They were stewards and advisors to the people of Middle-Earth, even unto the least. They were servants to The Valar, and subject to no others, as Mithrandir stated himself. Hence his reason for NOT accepting leadership of The White Council. "Subject to no summons, nor answerable to any save those who sent him," you will recall. Yes, they were servants in the way that your mentors and guidance counsellors serve you, but NOT in the way that an adjutant or underling serves. They were stewards in the service of all the free creatures of Middle-Earth, but they were NOT sujects nor subsidiaries of any of those peoples. To suggest otherwised is an ENTIRELY misleading and erroneous argument.

You are (perhaps willfully) misconstruing my argument that none of the Wizards should seem to be lesser lackeys of even The Lady of Lothlorien, as an argument that Gandalf should be the clear and commanding captain of all actions of The White Council. I most certainly am NOT arguing the latter. And an earlier poster said it best, Gandalf is humble in the regard that he does not, save in dire need, seek to impress his power or greatness upon others, and in that he is respectful of all other beings of goodwill. Yet, as that poster also said, the risk Peter et co. runs, as well as the slant of arguments like yours, is to implement other, secondary definitions of humble which do not apply to him in relation to the People's of Middle-Earth i.e. of minor ability and import, sincerely frail and weak (not merely appearing so), servile etc. etc.

If you can show me where I ever suggested that Galadriel should put her forehead to the floor and sing praise to any of the Wizards, I will owe you a brandy. What I have said is that their relationship mirrors what is said of them in text (that she held him in high enough regard to deem that he should lead The Council, for example), and that it reflect the fact that she at least knows something of the Greater Being that is veiled beneath his humble seeming raiment.

In Reply To
AinurOlorin wrote: (The Istari) should be enchanted by her beauty and respectful of her power and wisdom. . . but none of them, not even Radagast, should be made to seem overwhelmed, overawed, subserviant or out of their depth in her presence. They should take counsel from her, but they should also render counsel to her.

As has been beautifully pointed out by others here, Tolkien fitted the character of Gandalf the Grey into the larger mythology of the Silmarillion AFTER the publishing of the Hobbit. Given his post-Hobbit writing assignment, it was very important to Tolkien that the actions of the Istari be internally consistent to the behavior of his wizard, Gandalf, in The Hobbit. It's the reason why the Istari appeared in Middle Earth as frail, old men. It's the reason why they were expected to encourage, prod, nudge, and advise, but not to use their wisdom and power to dominate or lead. Until the rebirth of Gandalf as Gandalf the White in the hour of Middle Earth's greatest need, they were never meant to be leaders.

A recurring theme of Tolkien's which was highlighted in the telling of the tale of the Istari is that the 'greatest' among us are not necessarily the ones who will rule the day. Saruman, the greatest of the Istari, ultimately failed in his mission because he became increasingly self-center, self-willed, and concerned about his stature among the 'lesser' peoples of Middle Earth.

Contrast this to the humble, self-effacing, traveling wizard that Tolkien created in TH and who became his model for the Istari. Gandalf was MEANT to be subservient to the 'lesser' peoples of Middle Earth. If Tolkien's intent was for the wizards to revered by someone like Galadriel, why in the World would he have one become a haughty dwarf's expedition coordinator? Why would he have Gandalf treat Beorn the way he did? And why in the world would such a being involve himself with the race of the halflings, let alone allow himself to be disrespected by some of them?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 22 2013, 11:29pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 22 2013, 11:31pm

Post #28 of 29 (47 views)
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Very well said. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that states Gandalf was meant to be subservient to the people of ME. I have only ever read that he was meant to inspire them, kindle the fire of resistance against Sauron. Even as Gandalf the White he was a counsellor not a leader, at least in the books. He did "lead" the Fellowship (as the Grey) but this was as a guide and advisor to their course of actions and never as a ruler with subordinates, and certainly never subservient to them.



^ This.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 23 2013, 12:11am

Post #29 of 29 (83 views)
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The Wizards are Like Guardian Angels [In reply to] Can't Post

I think our discussion is biased by our knowledge. We know where Gandalf and Saruman and Radagast come from but the average movie-goer does not. Their origins are not explained. Even when Gandalf narrates his fight with the Balrog all he says is that he was sent back for a while. The average movie-goer is likely to see all of these characters including Galadriel and Elrond as equal.
Each of them has hidden power and that is referenced in various places in the texts. It is clear by the end of LOTR that Gandalf is the mightiest. But one should also point out that Aragorn is able to wrest the Palantir from Sauron's will and Aragorn is a Numenorean. This incident may show that in ME the maiar are not all powerful.
And in the end it may just be that Gandalf and Galadriel have a special friendship and bond which is being played out in this scene. It was after all Gandalf who brought her the Elessar Stone from oversea when he came to ME.

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