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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What if you were in Thorin´s situation (Spoilers)
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macfalk
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 8:25pm

Post #51 of 63 (212 views)
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A quote I found very accurate from the "In defence of Thorin Oakenshield" [In reply to] Can't Post

"Beorn represents nature and power in its raw state, and his unexpected aid of Thorin can be read as a mark of elemental approval for the dwarf’s actions. It works to reestablish Thorin’s status with the reader."





The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 20 2013, 8:53pm

Post #52 of 63 (190 views)
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Great essay! Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

It actually changed my mind a bit about book Thorin! Nice analysis!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Cirashala
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2013, 10:02pm

Post #53 of 63 (207 views)
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racist [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say that Thorin is racist toward elves, because he blames all elves for the wrongs of few elves against his people. I can say that he has not met every single elf in Middle Earth, so why would he think all elves are bad unless he is making a generalization?

As far as Bilbo, I do not think that his comment "descendant of rats" is racist in the slightest. It's no different than calling someone a son of a b****, you are not racially slurring them, you are simply insulting them and using their mother as part of the insult. It isn't racist IMO.

As far as the elves, I do not recall (though I admit I am no expert so I could be mistaken) that Thranduil has any sort of claim on the treasure. Bard most definitely does, but I do not recall Thranduil having any claim, unless perhaps a small recompense for any elves that Smaug may have eaten in his tenure in Erebor. To show up with an army is NOT the best way to negotiate in the slightest, and in that respect I think Thorin was right to say remove the elven army and then we can negotiate. I think Bard's claims are justified and had the elves not shown up with an army Thorin may have been more willing to talk to Bard.

As to the imprisonment of the dwarves, I think that (and this may earn me some haters on here but oh well) Thranduil had every right to imprison them, though maybe not for as long as he did. In his mind, they had entered his realm without permission essentially trespassing, they jumped uninvited into his people's parties heavily armed and the last one with Thranduil (royalty) present (how were the elves supposed to know they were begging? They didn't get a word in before the lights went out), they roused the spiders who weren't discriminate in that they surely would have attacked the elves as well as dwarves being enemies of both, and when finally questioned after all that, they didn't give him any answers. It is possible that had they told him the truth, he may have still imprisoned them in which case yes it would have been wrong, but by not saying anything he had no way to tell if they were assassins attempting to attack his people, or why they trespassed and if it was good reason or not, etc.

Honestly, Thranduil, while there are flaws in his character, was well within his right to imprison them (though not as long as he did). I know there are people from many different countries on here, so put in your respective political leader, whether it be a monarch or president or prime minister, etc. If a group of heavily armed strangers suddenly crashed a party where said political leader was in attendance, wouldn't they be guaranteed jail time if they were lucky? If someone enters a country illegally, wouldn't they be charged with a crime in that regards? If the answer is yes, as I believe all those on here would agree, then why should we think the dwarves would be allowed after all they did to just simply walk free? Perhaps Thranduil could have escorted them to his borders and warned them not to come back, but still I think I can somewhat justify their actions. In TT when Eomer comes across Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn, he risks death by not bringing them in front of King Theoden to get permission to wander his lands, and yet no one gets mad at Theoden for demanding permission to wander his realm. Why should we get mad at Thranduil for demanding them to be brought before him? It's the same thing I think, except for like I mentioned earlier, the dwarves' actions may have warranted more suspicion and arrest.

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Marionette
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 11:10pm

Post #54 of 63 (157 views)
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Fully agree about that [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin is far away an interesting/fascinating characters, for the good or for the bad.

That adds one point over flawless Aragorn.

But, we can appreciate both characters in different ways. I enjoy a lot Aragorn, he is just inspiring and noble.


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Marionette
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 11:26pm

Post #55 of 63 (151 views)
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Very good article! [In reply to] Can't Post

It helps me a lot to clear my points, even tough this is not my native language.
I basically see things just like that. And also makes me understand better how other readers see all this.
Excellent article.

"The complexities of Thorin" and I add the complexitie of the situation say it all.

It´s quite complex, I really wonder how will they manage all this in the film...ShockedUnsure


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



(This post was edited by Marionette on Feb 20 2013, 11:36pm)


Marionette
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 11:47pm

Post #56 of 63 (163 views)
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Suddenly many realize about that once *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

he is dead.

Just saying.

Once Thorin is dead all the people there finally respect him, for example the Elvenking...

He underestimated Thorin alive but then leads the glory of his funeral and return to him the Orcrist sword.

By the way I fully agree with this another quote from the article, there are many fantastic quotes but I take this one::

Gandalf has been missing for a large part of the book, and only now does he return to the scene. Yet he has chosen not to return to the dwarves, who he encouraged and aided up to this point, but sides with Bard and the Elvenking. His beliefs are aligned with those of Bilbo, and when Bard returns to reveal the Arkenstone as leverage, it is Gandalf in disguise who presents it. It is a mystery why the wizard does not try to encourage peace by talking to Thorin directly. He must have an idea how well Bilbo’s bargain will be received. His actions toward Thorin are less like those of an ally, and more like a parent waiting for a spoiled child to learn their lesson.



"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



(This post was edited by entmaiden on Feb 21 2013, 12:01am)


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 11:58pm

Post #57 of 63 (156 views)
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IMO [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It´s very easy to judge, but I am wondering so, what was the right thing to do being Thorin considering the whole background and everything affecting him..

1- What about Bilbo taking the Arkenstone for him, knowing that it was everything Thorin wanted in the first place. Wasn´t it a betrayal? Why people think it was not... it was.
2-Probably the only mistake from him was to not allow Bard to have part of his treasure. Some men were the rightful owners of the treasure as well.
3-He had the dragon illness and for me it doesn´t take reasons out of his behavior, that doesn´t make of him a jerk, all the people there had greed for the treasure, but suddenly everybody made him feel betrayed.

I would have been exactly like him, if you ask me. Everytime I read the book I think so.


And I felt like this even with only the book Thorin to go by, that Bilbo was wrong to do what he did with the Arkenstone. Good intentions and all but totally stupid nonsensical brainless move that IMO only made a bad situation even worse. If Tolkien actually believed that was a good idea as a good thing to do I have no idea what the heck he was thinking. LOL

I mean maybe Bilbo was thinking they could use the Arkenstone into basically blackmailing Thorin for what they wanted as in he wanted the Arkenstone so much he'd give them anything they wanted to get it back BUT that still makes it an incredibly nasty thing to do, good intentions or not.

Especially seeing as they came to his doorstep with an ARMY. For 13 freakin' dwarves and a hobbit! Talk about overkill. Of course Thorin would never trust them or give them what they wanted in that situation. THEY did not come in good faith so why should he act in good faith?

Now mind you, I do believe the right thing to do would be to simply give them their percentage. Laketown deserved a small amount because apparently some of Dale's wealth was included in the treasure and many of their descendents lived in Laketown and they'd also outfitted the dwarves, so they deserved their share. IMO I can't think that the Elves deserved anything, they were just being freaking greedy. Seriously you only helped Laketown because you figured you'd get repaid for it?

And certainly Bilbo didn't deserved to be murdered for it, but it was a betrayal and it was a huge betrayal IMO, again, dragon sickness or no dragon sickness. The sickness may have caused his reactions to be more extreme but on a basic level, the others were in the wrong too.

BUT IMO in a lot of ways, dragon sickness aside, they largely forced Thorin into the stance he took.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 21 2013, 12:01am)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 20 2013, 11:59pm

Post #58 of 63 (147 views)
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Maybe it's not about you [In reply to] Can't Post

I realize you might be feeling besieged because you are getting a lot of push-back, but my comment was more about the conversation in general. I did not tell "everyone" not to talk to you. I think it's time for all participants to take a deep breath and let this go.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 21 2013, 12:43am

Post #59 of 63 (130 views)
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Thank you for this link. [In reply to] Can't Post

The tone is both fair and sensitive to Thorin, as well as all the characters. It's a very persuasive essay.

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 21 2013, 3:30am

Post #60 of 63 (124 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

with everything you said here. You articulate it better than I could, however! LOL! I always felt Bilbo was wrong to take the Arkenstone to begin with, let alone do what he did with it. I guess the philosophy here is the end justifies the means (which I have never agreed with). And for the armed group that came to the door, at that point I think Thorin had no choice in digging in his heels. To give in even a little would have made him look like a weak King, susceptible to being strongarmed or shamed into backing down, regardless of whether he was right or wrong. If they had just come to parlay, they should have put down their weapons. (Then again, here we are at the old Mexican Standoff eh? A hard position, when neither party trusts the other. Maybe Gandalf would have served better as a mediator.)

And of course we feel that Bilbo didn't deserve to be murdered, or threatened with being murdered, for what he did. But as I've said before, the Arkenstone was a symbol of everything Thorin and the entire line of Durin stood for, fought for, died for. Bilbo knew this, yet again, the end for him justified the means.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 21 2013, 5:58am

Post #61 of 63 (109 views)
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Great link! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!

When I read the book I never thought Thorin was that bad, but I never cared much for any of the dwarves either (except perhaps for Fili, who I identified with the most as he was said to be the 'youngest').

As concerning racism, I think it is tolerated to a much higher degree in Middle-Earth, and most of the time the Elves were openly racist. Those who are more tolerant of other races are shown to be exceptional, so tolerance is definitely not the norm. Personally, in such a world I don't see a problem in people being a bit more racist than what we are comfortable with today.

So, I've always felt that the conflict over the treasure arose from 'adult pride' and 'bad negotiation skills' more than anything else...

I think if I had been a kid when I read it I would have thought "Adults and their weird, complicated ways! Why can't everyone just share and be happy?" -- a sentiment that Thorin finally acknowledged before his death, which I think is kinda one of the main points of the book.


Gelir
Bree

Feb 21 2013, 1:35pm

Post #62 of 63 (87 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

If I'm trying to be fair, I do acknowledge that it was Thranduil's lands and they probably needed his leave to go wandering through them. Refusing to talk was wise since they were separated with no way to get an alternate story straight, but it probably made them more suspect. However, I think the starving bit would have been plain to see given their state, and the other dwarves were obviously weak and sick from the spiders. And only 13, so not really that much of a threat. No matter how I try to see Thranduil's point of view, I can never manage to like him in the book. I never thought he was evil, but never liked his treatment of the dwarves.

And whether he was justified in locking them up or not, I agree with you 100% that he was indeed trespassing when he came looking for treasure and should not have expected a thing from the dwarves.

I wonder if I will like his character in the movie any better. I think they will try to find a way to make him more sympathetic, at least by the time of the battle if not in Mirkwood.


Gelir
Bree

Feb 21 2013, 1:44pm

Post #63 of 63 (113 views)
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Couldn't agree more [In reply to] Can't Post

With your post, especially your comments on Bard.

I guess I've come to the right forum, though maybe I should have come prior to the movie when you were losing the argument. :). I always liked Thorin despite his book flaws and always saw that there was more to the dwarves than gold. When I read LotR, the appendix made me like the dwarves even more and Thorin in particular. Movie Thorin really brings the appendix Thorin to life, and I'm glad they chose that path.

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