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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Dáin be worthy of being called King? (***spoilers***, naturally)
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Kimtc
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 4:32am

Post #51 of 68 (236 views)
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I think a lot of it depends on Billy Connolly's portrayal. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure PJ cast him for a specific reason, and having seen him in other movies I expect something kind of gruff with a touch of "scary wild man on a boar." I don't think he was cast to come in as an avuncular sort. I see an older Dwalin, actually.

But I agree that the comment in Bag End about the Iron Hills dwarves not coming sets him up negatively. Not that it should. He was acting as a responsible king and keeping his people safe, so running into a mountain full of dragon wouldn't have made sense.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 4:41am

Post #52 of 68 (233 views)
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The tissue concession [In reply to] Can't Post

 A fantastic idea! I would buy stock in that company.
What an ending it will be....

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 20 2013, 5:10am

Post #53 of 68 (269 views)
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Thorin's fate **spoilers** [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I don't think Thorin's succumbing to the DS is really any different. It sure looks like a mental illness to me. I think by the time he charges forth from Erebor glittering in armor, with his Company arrayed behind him, he has recovered. His fierce willingness at that point to participate in the big battle is enough, in my eyes, to redeem him. He's over the DS now. Does he have to die? Well, it sure increases the emotional impact, and it completes the tragic hero character arc, but I think he's already managed his redemption before his deathbed words to Bilbo.


I think you bring up a very good point. For Thorin to simply admit the error of his ways on his deathbed is insufficient to garner any real redemption, I think. If he gets over the DS well before that, if we see him as he was (or is now) - the courageous, noble warrior-king - going off gallantly into battle, then his death will be oh so much more devastating! Just when it looks like he will finally attain what he had been striving for all those years, it will be taken from him. And from us. Get out the tissues already!

I think RA said in the interview I posted a while back that he looked at Thorin's DS as an addict struggling to keep it under control - sometimes unsuccessfully. So if we get to see him as a recovering DS addict when he meets his end rather than a last minute confessional/redemption, his loss will be so much more poignant. (I can just see him now in a group therapy session with DSA, Dragon-Sickness Anonymous. Okay, I had to go there.)

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


ShireHorse
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 1:28pm

Post #54 of 68 (228 views)
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I've just begun to wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

if Dain, having let down Thorin at the beginning of the film, will redeem himself by arriving at the Mountain because he has had second thoughts, rather than in response to a message from Thorin.

This would remove the troublesome detail of a bird carrying a (spoken) message to him and will make Thorin look a bit better in two ways: it's another example of his charisma as a leader and king that even the stubborn/sensible Dain has finally responded to his call; he doesn't look so sneaky when he sends for Dain in secret.

It works for Dain, because he doesn't have to be "ordered", he doesn't just come because he knows now that the dragon is dead and so is lured by the thought of a share of the treasure but he comes of his own free will to join his king, expecting trouble from the dragon still. This will make Dain look quite noble and worthy of being the next king.


emre43
Lorien

Feb 20 2013, 2:21pm

Post #55 of 68 (214 views)
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Going by Dain's words in LOTR to the Witch King [In reply to] Can't Post

He seems to be a wise character. A boar-riding dwarf with a mohawk somehow doesn't give me the feeling that Dain is going to come across as wise.


Kimtc
Rohan


Feb 20 2013, 2:51pm

Post #56 of 68 (210 views)
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This is an excellent concept! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know there are people here who want the talking birds, purses, etc., but that is just too hard to pull off on film. And it does go a long way towards rehabilitating both Thorin and Dain.

The other key is hitting the sweet spot in how long Dain is onscreen. He's got to be there long enough that we care about the character, but not so long that he potentially takes away from the main characters (I'm concerned by the end that Bilbo will become an afterthought).

I've been trying to think of examples, and the closest I can come up with is the Wallace/Robert the Bruce situation in Braveheart (except Robert was aroun the entire movie).


imin
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 3:37pm

Post #57 of 68 (194 views)
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That is interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Both having a very similar opinion and then both being boys and same age.

My very favourite was Bilbo of course but the dwarves were certainly right up there - i honestly had no idea so many disliked Thorin in the book!

I love that quote from the review! I think there must be lots of terribly precocious children walking around then as so many love the book :)


imin
Valinor


Feb 20 2013, 3:55pm

Post #58 of 68 (200 views)
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Sounds like we are both a little bit jealous of each other, haha [In reply to] Can't Post

you for wishing in a way you had read the books at an earlier date and myself for wishing in a way i had not so the connection with the films would be easier, lol. Funny how that works isn't it? :P

Balin for me is not bad at all in the film and i had always thought of him in a very similar way to how he is portrayed in the film - i also like his design in the movie so that helps.

Bombur doesn't look too much like how i imagined - i think he looks more like Obelix to me but i don't feel like we know much about him at this point beyond he likes to eat so that will come later i imagine.

Fili and Kili - again not really how i imagined - Kili to me doesn't look like a dwarf but i thought they were done well as they had a fair bit of dialogue and feel they are in keeping with their characters from the book just we will know them better by the end of the three movies. Thorin's death in the book always made me much more sad than the death of Fili and Kili.

I kinda think maybe those impressionable years has created a work that isn't fully what was written by Tolkien but as it is a short book with lots of room for interpretation my mind filled in the blanks. I also think i have watched so many movies that my mind pictures it like a film sometimes - so if they are running i will get wide panning shots which arc in closer or others where they are running across my field of vision but we can only see their feet for example.

I think this is partly why i love Tolkien so much, the extra lengths he goes to in describing his landscapes really helps me (and i guess most people) visualise the world and all i can say is thank goodness for the maps in the back of the book! Allows you to orientate the mountains at the edge of your mental view etc. I think when you almost watch it as a movie, then seeing the real movie is almost jarring after having a very solid view of the world/places/people. (feel like i am coming close to talking like that character from Tropic Thunder, haha).

Still i think by the end of film 3 some of the film imagery and dialogue will sneak in to my weird version of the hobbit and enrich it like it has for you.

Finally i hope Beorn exceeds all your expectations as well and you can incorporate from movie Beorn as you will to further increase your mental image of the hobbit/middle-earth.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 4:52pm

Post #59 of 68 (203 views)
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Indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

 I will be very interested to see if our experiences begin to overlap more by film three!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 20 2013, 6:19pm

Post #60 of 68 (185 views)
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That's a great idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

For the reasons both you and Kimtc have laid out, I hope the writers use it to bring Dain to Erebor.

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 8:34pm

Post #61 of 68 (170 views)
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It would help (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

in giving us more of a reason to like Dain. I've been searching endlessly for one since December.....I know we must accept the loss of Thorin but I don't want to leave ONLY feeling loss. If we can see Dain with a conscience and as a rebuilder instead of rather usurper-ish maybe it will mitigate it a fraction. It would serve a number of functions; I think the birds could work, but in the area of the Dain question it would be a nice solution.
Perhaps we see him not refusing outright, but being voted down by other voices....
Very good idea!Smile

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Feb 20 2013, 8:49pm

Post #62 of 68 (164 views)
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Dain as Rebuilder [In reply to] Can't Post

This is exactly what's needed. yesterday on Tornlive Justin said that those that know Connolly and are familiar with the filming thus far have said that Dain just kills it and is great. I really hope we see that and I really hope it's as reconciliation and honor. To me this takes nothing from Thorin. Dain would not have taken back Erebor himself and indeed did not want to go at all. Thorin was the impetus for getting it done. But as McArthur was in WWII, a general is one thing, a peacetime leader is quite another. You need both. Not either or.

I remain optimistic.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 20 2013, 9:45pm

Post #63 of 68 (162 views)
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"'Descendent of rats,' indeed." [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see that so much as a racist remark as rather a personal insult.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 20 2013, 10:41pm

Post #64 of 68 (158 views)
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Fan wanking IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't mean by you, I've done it myself, so don't take it as an insult as it's not meant as one. :)

But IMO I've never heard anything about Tolkien himself mentioning that as a reason for Kili and Fili's deaths(esp given they barely rate a mention and he never mentions their youth or anything like that in doing it, simply that they did it for family basically)and thus, if he has not, it's just stuff we fans are coming up with to try and explain what basically comes across as weak storytelling to make it seem like he gave it more than thought than he probably did.

Honestly, unless there is something where he mentions it(and there could be), it really just comes across as he killed them off because he suddenly realized they were in the way of Dain getting the throne and for some reason he really really wanted Dain to get the throne.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2013, 11:30pm

Post #65 of 68 (153 views)
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Oh, fantastic idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

That would go a long ways towards the redemption of *both* characters. Sometimes I really wish PJ or his allies read this board closely...


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 21 2013, 8:14am

Post #66 of 68 (136 views)
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Oh I like this idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

That would solve a lot of problems!

And I can imagine the look of relief on the dwarves' faces when they realize Dain has come with an army to help them 'fight the dragon'. The 'our-kins-have-come' moment would be pretty sweet!

I agree about the talking animal messengers. It will be really difficult to pull off in a movie and I wouldn't mind that aspect being changed.


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 21 2013, 1:45pm

Post #67 of 68 (129 views)
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Interesting idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have speculated on Dáin having a character-arc akin to Théoden in ROTK; Hesitant at first ("Tell me, why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours?"), but ultimately deciding to come to the aid of their allies ("And Rohan will answer!").

This would, of course, mean that the Battle of the Five Armies would feature the ride of the Boarhirrim.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 21 2013, 6:08pm

Post #68 of 68 (152 views)
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Your "ride of the... [In reply to] Can't Post

Boarhirrim"! Well done!

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit

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