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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I think you mistake the meaning of the complaint..

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 10 2013, 1:36am


Views: 70
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I think you mistake the meaning of the complaint.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't expect Gandalf to behave in a commanding manner towards others either (though certainly at times he does), and I certainly don't expect him to command Galadriel. But neither should she seem to be constantly giving direction to him. If the Elves were more elevated than The Maiar, then no Maiar need have been sent. I would also say he is meek-mannered, often, rather than actually meek, which can imply relative powerlessness rather than merely a considerate and unassuming disposition.

I do not find it unreasonable that she would give advice to him either. Yet, the advising would NOT be one sided. My problem is not that she gives him advice, it is that she has yet to be seen taking any from him. Their are aspects of superiority in the relationship where there should not be, and they all seem one sidedly to favour Galadriel in the same way they did with Frodo and Aragorn. In those instances it was appropriate. Yet Galadriel should not be seen to relate to The Istari in the same manner in which she relates to Men and hobbits. And while I agree, Gandalf would not seek to demand any semblance of reverance from Galadriel, knowing what he is, and having a love and reverance for the Ainur, even though she disobeyed their wishes in following the pride which her uncle but not friend Feanor had stirred in her. Knowing what he was, and knowing how steadfast he was in the adherence to his mission and his commitment to the free peoples, she would have shown something of that deep respect for him. It is evinced in her desire for him to have lead The Council, and in her words to the fellowship which, sadly, only appear in the extended version and in the books. "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf. . . those who followed him did not know his mind and cannot report his full purpose."

I don't want to see Galadriel bowing and scrapping before Gandalf. She wouldn't do it and he wouldn't want it. What I do want is for the writers of the film to make clear that he is not somehow of lower status than she, or in any way her subordinate and inferior. I would like to see more of them taking counsel together, and less of what could easily be construed as him taking direction.

In Reply To
Good point Sulime, the elves act completely different to their book counterparts. Yes they are grim and full of melancholy but they are almost equally full of mirth and childlike wonder. This dualism contributes to their non human and seemingly alien demeanor. They are like humans in some regard but mostly strange and react in extremes.

As for Gandalf, I believe part of his personality comes into play with his interactions. Being a humble spirit taking the guise of a wizened elderly fellow he embodies restrained wisdom and selfless pride. It is not in Gandalf's nature to dominate others or demand respect. However Galadriel is full of pride and as one of the Noldor more aligned with the personality and character as one of Aule in the vein of Sauron and Saruman.

Of course Gandalf is an "angelic" being but his true self is concealed for a specific purpose and intent. Do any angels or servants of higher beings demand reverence or adulation? Therefore Gandalf naturally assumes a position of subservience because he is in fact on a mission to assist the peoples of Middle Earth. In fact I would personally find fault in a reversed situation, I just could not imagine Gandalf commanding Galadriel or demonstrating an air of superiority, he is simply far too humble and meek an individual.

I know personally Olroin, you took serious offense with the way Gandalf was portrayed in the White Council scene but you shouldn't concern yourself with the interpretations of the common audience. The average moviegoer has little understanding of Tolkien mythos and there are many embellished scenes even in LOTR which fail to convey the depth or complexity of the story. The average person would see Arwen as possessing elemental power over water which we know is not the case. The average person would see Elrond as detached and jaded by suffering and loss to the point of angry possessiveness of his daughter which is so unlike his book counterpart. Most infuriatingly the average person thinks Sauron was invincible and was by freakish coincidence slain by a lucky Isildur but we know that it was Elendil and Gil-galad who was responsible. These changes exist and alter dynamics and nuances but can be reconciled with the lore. More importantly it is irrelevant what the general masses think of LOTR.

Obviously AinurOlorin you have a great deal of interest and intrigue for Gandalf, but you shouldn't let sentimental notions blind you to the greater picture of the White Council. If a hobbit can give a spiritual entity courage why can't one of the firstborn which has endured much more than a sheltered servant of a god give advise and counsel? Many times even the Valar have shown surprise and wonder at the firstborn's ability and capacity. It is not outside of reason to suggest that Galadriel and the Noldor know more of the enemy and the effects of its evil than the Maiar who have not been as personally affected. In terms of experience and knowledge on the subject it is possible Elrond and Galadriel are better positioned to assist the Istari in their chief objective, to help the free peoples deny and unturn Sauron.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Subject User Time
A continuing vexation over the seeming lack of reverance shown by Galadriel to Gandalf, despite her knowledge of what he is and her high esteem of him. I hope they will rectify this in the coming films. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 6 2013, 10:23pm
    They've gone to too much trouble... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Feb 6 2013, 11:14pm
        It is shameful. Him being a Great Wizard (and a Holy Spirit veiled in flesh) does not AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 6 2013, 11:30pm
            Quite shameful indeed! Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 4:05pm
                We should take both of those options under advisement, and AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:24pm
                    On a more serious note... Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 4:40pm
                        Actually, there is a very intimate encounter between them which Tolkien relays, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:49pm
                            UT material Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 5:06pm
                                I agree... Ereinion Nénharma Send a private message to Ereinion Nénharma Feb 7 2013, 5:11pm
                            I'm not sure how they could portray this. Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 5:07pm
                                I wouldn't expect them to portray this scene. They can't. They COULD AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 5:18pm
                                    I have no idea why someone would think she was his superior. Kassandros Send a private message to Kassandros Feb 7 2013, 9:21pm
                                        A LOT of people thought so. Problematically, the people who lacked the prior knowledge to know better. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 9:54pm
                                            Galadriel is walking IdrilofGondolin Send a private message to IdrilofGondolin Feb 8 2013, 1:43am
                                                I was actually suggesting that the seating denoted an honouring of the Istari, not the Elves. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 8 2013, 2:09am
                                                    I like your suggestion about the seating Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Feb 8 2013, 3:29am
                                                        I get what you are saying, and there is some truth in what you are saying, however her AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 8 2013, 7:13am
                                                            The White Council scene Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Feb 8 2013, 8:15am
                                                                Elf Portrayal and Gandalf Personality Mahtion Send a private message to Mahtion Feb 8 2013, 2:24pm
                                                                    I think you mistake the meaning of the complaint.. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 10 2013, 1:36am
                                                    Point well taken IdrilofGondolin Send a private message to IdrilofGondolin Feb 8 2013, 3:17pm
                                                        point 4 Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 8 2013, 4:30pm
    Galadriel and gandalf Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 6 2013, 11:39pm
        Only the "Why the Halfling" line. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 6 2013, 11:56pm
            yes, true Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 6 2013, 11:59pm
            Dol Goldur Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 12:15am
                Well . . . I don't want to get into what it means for him to carry him from AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 12:17am
                    Like echoing the staff breaking in Minias Tirith Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 12:43am
                        Ach! God. I blot it from my mind. Thank God it was only in EE, NOT the theatrical. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 1:08am
                            too far in (?) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 1:38am
                                If only it were clearly even equal! AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:02am
                                    In the high fells ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort Feb 7 2013, 9:29am
                        I hate that scene The White Wizard Send a private message to The White Wizard Feb 9 2013, 2:23pm
                            Theatrical need Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 9 2013, 3:32pm
            Interpretation Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Feb 7 2013, 2:31am
    Legal issues Fredeghar Wayfarer Send a private message to Fredeghar Wayfarer Feb 7 2013, 10:20am
        The Appendices already say that they are sent from The Lords of The West. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:10pm
        This makes me wonder... Ereinion Nénharma Send a private message to Ereinion Nénharma Feb 7 2013, 4:57pm
            Elrond knew. Cirdan and Glorfindel knew. Others of the Eldar may have guessed, but they did not definitively know until the end of The Third Age. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 5:05pm
                Thank you... Ereinion Nénharma Send a private message to Ereinion Nénharma Feb 7 2013, 5:13pm
                    You are AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 5:19pm
                        For love of a Wizard. Its threads like this Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 7 2013, 5:59pm
                            *blushes mightily* AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 8:49pm
    Being mad on Istari-justice, I agree with you, though I think it depends on interpretation Radagast-Aiwendil Send a private message to Radagast-Aiwendil Feb 7 2013, 12:53pm
        Yup MorgolKing Send a private message to MorgolKing Feb 7 2013, 1:40pm
    Then you'll love the Dol Guldur scenes stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Feb 7 2013, 2:44pm
        Gandalf became mightier later on Mahtion Send a private message to Mahtion Feb 7 2013, 3:40pm
            Whaaaaaa? AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:19pm
    I don't think that Galadriel's depiction is that far off... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7 2013, 3:53pm
        She invited them, and asked that Gandalf be the leader of The Council entire. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:23pm
            Even then, she did not get her way... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Feb 7 2013, 4:27pm
                It wasn't Saruman's insistence but Gandalf's refusal that settled the matter. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 4:44pm
    I hope they will do no such thing dubulous Send a private message to dubulous Feb 7 2013, 5:54pm
        Humble in part by choice, Dubulous. Humple, not subserviant. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Feb 7 2013, 8:45pm
    It's a different canon now Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Feb 7 2013, 10:01pm
    The "Nine Reasons Why" article on home page Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Feb 9 2013, 11:25pm

 
 
 

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