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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dain Ironfoot
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Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 6 2013, 7:28pm

Post #26 of 33 (131 views)
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Dain and retaining clarity [In reply to] Can't Post


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the Hobbit much more enjoyable than LOTR because the story breaths better




My impression and I have to say I do not read every thread here or all the media is the main complaints are :-

1) Its not like the childrens book, which hardly breaths at all, its a series of fantasy episodes which turns into a grim tale after Smaugs death and then the final climax is dealt with in flash back to retain its light episodic nature. .

2) Only last week one of the guides on the River Dart in Glenorchy said he felt it takes to long to get going but once it does its great which is a frequent observation, for those it breaths to much in the first ninety minutes.

It seems one persons hollywoodised adventure story is another persons "nothing really happens". But certainly all the people I have attended the movie with share my view (particularly the casual film goers) as do some of those reported in threads here.

However my point, from my view of what I have seen so far, and thats the only view that matters to me is, if they carry on with the good work of building Bilbo/Thorin and Gandalfs arcs, which all the action takes both strategically and tactically against, Dains contribution to the 460 minute theatrical version will be dynamic clear and to the point and will build quickly to his role in the BOTFA in just one movie and that he will rather like Aragorn be positioned to become the rightful heir to the Kingship of Erebor. The emotional acceptance in this case will not be driven by the years of patient apprenticeship and journeying but after the Dwarves loss to take upon himself the mantle of "Father of his folk", a phrase that Dain uses in the appendices, by right of succession and underlined by actions and deeds.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 9:44pm

Post #27 of 33 (105 views)
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Not too much later, though... [In reply to] Can't Post


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Is that in the book, Thorin and Company don't actually join the battle until much later. Dain was leading the Dwarven army for most of the battle. That should give him enough reason to kill off Azog, as he did in the book. Maybe it will have Azog trying to enter Erebor to attack Thorin, but Dain charges up to intercept him, and they have their duel.

Think about it: Dain on his Boar vs. Azog on his white Warg. That's a spectacle if I ever heard of one.



Thorin and his company do join the battle late, but still before the Eagles arrive and Bilbo is struck unconscious. You are right, though, that Dain is definitely leading the dwarven army up to that point.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


imin
Valinor


Feb 7 2013, 12:38am

Post #28 of 33 (98 views)
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i don't agree [In reply to] Can't Post

2) Only last week one of the guides on the River Dart in Glenorchy said he felt it takes to long to get going but once it does its great which is a frequent observation, for those it breaths to much in the first ninety minutes.


Just because the film finally gets going in casual movie goers minds after 90 minutes, this does not mean that the film has a better flow than the lord of the rings, which has never had those complaints made about it.

Many casual fans feel the start is too slow, critics in general agree. Many fans on here think the start is some of the best stuff and then it suffers from having too infrequent breaks of any real length and is just action scene, action scene, action scene - which is very similar to the episodic nature of the book actually.

That does not create a flowing movie nor does it make a film breath, its the opposite of that.

But obviously one persons flowing movie could be continuous action scenes where as others prefer a more balanced movie with action punctuated with character moments and dialogue something lacking for many parts of the final 2/3 of the film. From talking to friends, many feel the same.

Though i feel this may change once the EE comes out as i think they will have omitted dialogue for spectacle even when its not really needed.


On the different topic of Dain i agree.


Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 7 2013, 12:42pm

Post #29 of 33 (84 views)
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What I mean by flow [In reply to] Can't Post


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One persons flowing movie could be continuous action scenes where as others prefer a more balanced movie with action punctuated with character moments and dialogue something lacking for many parts of the final 2/3 of the film. From talking to friends, many feel the same.

Though i feel this may change once the EE comes out as i think they will have omitted dialogue for spectacle even when its not really needed.


On the different topic of Dain i agree.


I know we have moved off topic but I enjoy these kind of conversations. Let me explain what I mean by flow and that the Hobbit breaths.

One of the challanges of making the LOTR was to deal with a very dense narrative with multiple story lines and multiple story arcs. As I got older when I ever I read the book the sections that most deeply move me in which I have real engagement are the minatures F/S/G to Mordor is the stand out but equally M/P and Orc journey and A/L/G dashing across Rohan. Two days ago I watched the first disc of the TTT EE as I had recently visited Mount Sunday and I was struck by the sense of reading a diary. Day 3 M drops the broach Day 5 they escape and the F/S/G journey seems to me like a series of vignettes with just a hint of Tolkiens genius in one exchange between the emergent Smeagol and Frodo. I know it was incredibly difficult to deal with multiple story lines but somehow I didn't feel submerged in the story it was flying by in a choppy way.

Now with the Hobbit the film makers have an entirely different challange to actually reimagine the little book in the multi faceted way we know the journey to Erebor actually occured not the 1932 childrens version.

I was reaquainted with Gandalf the Grey in an even more layered way.

I got to know whom Bilbo really was at the beginning of the quest and am fascinated by all that happens.

and for me the game changer was Thorin who is a fully fledged three dimensional character.

and all the movie back story/action/dialogue flowed from these three character arcs. For me the movie has a clear and decisive heart based around three fascinating and different characters which will continue through out the 460 minutes. It is anchored in three characters whose stories breath thats what I mean.

My partner who loved the Hobbit watched the LOTR in December and just could not follow the myriad of story lines. Really the LOTR is about Aragorn, Frodo and Gandalf but you have to include Merry, Pippin, Boromir and Theodred and Faramir and Eowyn. Eomer, Theoden and Saruman and Wormtongue and Denethor whose story arcs have a life of their own separate from A/F/G.

Azog, Thranduil are there for Thorin. Bolg and Radagast are there for Gandalf. The Dwarves, Galadriel,Elrond and Beorn are/ will be textural the only arcs which may exist in their own universe will be Bard/Master. I know nothing about the intensions surrounding Tauriel and Legolas.

Even Dain, which this thread is about, is there to work off Thorin in a very specific way. Thats why I suspect I may come to love the Hobbit movies for their three character centred engagement whereas I simply admire the LOTR films though I think the final sections do eventually lift Frodo right into the centre with great skill reminding us of the ultimate sacrifice that some have tomake to save others and save themselves.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.


imin
Valinor


Feb 7 2013, 1:42pm

Post #30 of 33 (74 views)
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Ok i think i get what you mean more now [In reply to] Can't Post

I think i have this right? You are saying there is basically too much going on in the lotr with too many story lines so that even though the action stops and starts it doesn't really feel natural but more fits and stops kinda way which makes it choppy?

Where as the hobbit has had things embellished from the book but this embellishment doesn't lead to an overly complex story line but one which is between the hobbit book ( think it was released 1937) and the lotr book so it is doable and people can relate to it and understand it?

My favourite of the lotr movies is fotr, though i think this one has many scenes where the journey is shortened to a quick view of them walking and then boom they have arrived, this is something i am not so fond of in the movie but due to time constraints i am willing to look past.

For me i agree the hobbit has a storyline which is less complex, even with the added material from the appendices and some more made up stuff, than the lotr movies/book.

And i can see how people think this creates a better flow when the action is centered much more around a small number of central characters than lots of characters but for me that still doesnt mean the movie breaths better. Though i guess it depends on if one sees it as choppy (which i can totally understand) or if they see it as having natural points which are more subdued.

For me in a movie i like to have points of quiet/reflection and then a build up in tension and finally a release - this can happen multiple times but follows a similar pattern. I dont get this impression from the hobbit. This is especially true for me after they leave Rivendell where i feel its just release, release, release one could say - this means for me there is no down time to then build up the excitement, intrigue and tension it almost becomes constant noise.

it is dependent on how it is done though for sure - it could come off as being episodic if not handled well following that pattern but for the most part i felt the structure of working like that worked well in the LOTR movies and sometimes during the hobbit - such as when Balin is talking about the battle of azanulbizar. I just wish it had more of those moments.

I dont think it helps that i feel stone giants, goblin town and out of the frying pan and into the fire are generally a poor effort in my mind to the point where i would like the stone giant scene to either be completely redone or just edited out. I think if one thinks like this then the time passes more slowly (essentially i was getting bored) and so it seems to flow worse at that point in the film than others.

I can see how others less invested in the world are essentially saying 'get on with it' at the beginning as they just want to see some action.

On another note i was just curious to know if your engagement with the book has changed as you have got older? Did you previously prefer other parts of the book than the ones you mentioned. I know for myself when i first read it, the council of elrond was horrible and i struggled to get through it - now its one of my favourite sections of the book along with the frodo, sam, gollum interactions which i totally agree are far superior in the book in comparison to the movie - though i feel book frodo is far more 3 dimensional and interesting than movie frodo.


Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 7 2013, 4:23pm

Post #31 of 33 (64 views)
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The effect of aging [In reply to] Can't Post

I was much more fascinated by the organisational sub creation when I was younger and found the slow bits hard work. In 1980 when Unfinished Tales was released I was 25 and I found the re written sections on Tuor and Turin utterly captivating. If you look at the slowed down sections of LOTR particularly book 4 and 6 and some of the later published Silmarillion ideas he just got better and better at realising his imagined world through small intimate exchanges and to day after all my journeys at 57 that is where I love to go. I think he was right, though way to late to make it happen, that the three major tales of the Silmarillion should be written by men rather than an eleven minstrel. That clash between down to earth "us" and adult fairie is astonishingly powerful.

I get your concerns post Rivendell I loved the exchange between Bofur and Bilbo but its fair to say I see the Giants and the Goblin as operatic moments more about style than substance. I think with a good deal of this it comes down to how much something derails us. Many will agree on the overall value of a section its simply a case of how we ride over sections. I have a hunch there is one legacy of going two to three late on they maybe worked a little to hard to bring off the concluding section rather than what you were after more light and shade. I was fine but I see your point of view.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.


imin
Valinor


Feb 8 2013, 12:21am

Post #32 of 33 (56 views)
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Thanks for reply [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been good to get to know the point of view you hold and nice of you not to get instantly offended that i disagreed as can sometimes happen! Also interesting to know that your appreciation of the work has changed over the years, or what you find most appealing.

I am only 25 myself but read the books (hobbit when about 8 and lotr when about 11ish) so to me that's quite a while ago now. Already i feel the books have changed to how i view them though i think i am still in the astounded he could have created all this stage Tongue It will be interesting to see if the way we look at his work continues to change as we get older/even more acquainted with the work.


Michelle Johnston
Lorien


Feb 8 2013, 10:38am

Post #33 of 33 (179 views)
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At your service ! [In reply to] Can't Post

You are most welcome. One of the great privilages of the internet is to share conversation over something we are passionate about rather than never meeting anyone who enjoys or shares your passions. I am enjoying sitting down with a coffee at the note pad and popping in here. If I do not like a topic or the slant it is taking I just ignore it. I am delighted you read them at that time in that order. I came to the Hobbit second so I have always wanted the story re imagined as Adult Fairie. During my lifetime the best chance I am going to get is now. Whether we enjoy all the elements, what I would say is last month when I was in NZ I had the very real thrill of being in the company of someone who works directly with PJ. His view like mine is he is entirely sincere and will keep going until he is convinced he has done the best he can. I think the hardest bit is now out the way and he has time to make the next two sit exactly where they should. My only concern is he keeps the big moments in proportion and using the operatic approach sparringly. I suspect the first real test will be the Barrels segment.

Curiously if Sir Peter has a fault it is the same as JRRT strategically he works organically on the subject and it ends up somewhere different to what he intended. For both the subject matter is a labour of love and the result is constant changes rewrites and surprising outcomes. The LOTR was started as a follow up to the Hobbit and ended up recounting the end of the third age of the world of the Silmarillion. The Hobbit movie project started as one movie for the book and a bridge - and then there were three.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Feb 8 2013, 10:40am)

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