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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin's beard!
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Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 5 2013, 10:45pm

Post #26 of 39 (220 views)
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That irreverent mischief-maker? [In reply to] Can't Post


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Even when a Dwarf is young, they sport impressive Beards plaited and all. Textual evidence? I'm looking and I can't find any! Pretty sure there is no explicit reference to beard length (except that Dwalin's blue beard is long enough to tuck into a belt) anywhere in The Hobbit. but they decided to go with a scruffy Elven look. Elves are not scruffy. Ever. Men are scruffy, dwarves are scruffy, elves know how to bathe. Apparently. he is the ONLY guy without any Dwarven makeup whatsoever. Well, no, that's not true. He does have prosthetics, hair, and makeup, just not as much as some of the others. I think his look reinforces his youth and it works for me! Or maybe he shaved his beard in an act of teenage (in dwarf-reckoning, at least) rebellion.


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 6 2013, 12:10am

Post #27 of 39 (197 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post


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In Reply To
Even when a Dwarf is young, they sport impressive Beards plaited and all. Textual evidence? I'm looking and I can't find any! Pretty sure there is no explicit reference to beard length (except that Dwalin's blue beard is long enough to tuck into a belt) anywhere in The Hobbit. but they decided to go with a scruffy Elven look. Elves are not scruffy. Ever. Men are scruffy, dwarves are scruffy, elves know how to bathe. Apparently. he is the ONLY guy without any Dwarven makeup whatsoever. Well, no, that's not true. He does have prosthetics, hair, and makeup, just not as much as some of the others. I think his look reinforces his youth and it works for me! Or maybe he shaved his beard in an act of teenage (in dwarf-reckoning, at least) rebellion.


I keep hearing people say "But they don't look like dwarves". But Tolkien never described how dwarves looked as a whole, aside from the general shape of their bodies and having beards. He never described to my knowledge what children's beards were like so who is to say they have plaited beards even in youth?

As well I don't believe he ever really described their faces beyond talking about a few individual traits of individual characters(like Fili's long nose), as I said in another thread, who is to say that dwarves don't just look like short stocky Vikings?

As for Kili, one of his character traits in the films is supposed to be that he's slightly rebellious, very eager to please, but also slightly rebellious so maybe that's why he hasn't let his beard grow out, or maybe he's just a late bloomer facial hair wise, there would likely be a difference between the facial hair of a child and that of an adult and maybe it's just not making a smooth transition.

Or maybe it's because he's an archer and feels a beard would get in the way of moving his skills to the next level being as you often hold the bow string right up next to your face(I believe they all it "kissing the arrow"). Sort of like swimmers, sure you don't need to shave off all your body hair to be a good swimmer but most competitive swimmers do because every little bit helps. Maybe he's just that into his archery that he'd even sacrifice his beard to it.


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 6 2013, 1:57am

Post #28 of 39 (177 views)
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It is in the book, thus a change. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two passages that refers to Thorin's beard, passages that has shaped my vision of him. The first comes as the Company enters Rivendell, crossing the bridge.

“Don’t dip your beard in the foam, father!” they cried to Thorin, who was bent almost on to his hands and knees. “It is long enough without watering it.”

The second passage comes after the Company has escaped Goblin-town, the Company travelling through the night to get some distance before the goblins creep out at nightfall.

"Must we go any further?" asked Bilbo, when it was so dark that he could only just see Thorin's beard wagging beside him."

It doesn't tell the color, true, but I think it's quite clear it's a long (longer than in the movie, at the least) beard we're dealing with; Even if you explain away the first one as the elves teasing him on the logic that just having a beard means you have too long a beard, I really don't think you can refer to a beard as "wagging" unless there is something to wag.

Now, whether or not one think it is a good change, is one thing. It is, however, a change. As most changes, it may make sense (really, most changes do make sense, if you look hard enough), and I can even respect that they had a reasoning behind it, but...it making sense doesn't actually negate my disappointment.




(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 6 2013, 2:06am)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 6 2013, 2:15am

Post #29 of 39 (162 views)
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Okay, I'd forgotten those. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you on the wagging. It's hard to imagine a short beard like movie-Thorin's doing any wagging. So, it is a change!

I hope you're at least glad that Dwalin's beard isn't blue...


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 2:36am

Post #30 of 39 (173 views)
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Thorin's beard [In reply to] Can't Post


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I agree with you on the wagging. It's hard to imagine a short beard like movie-Thorin's doing any wagging.


Darn fun to make it try though.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


aarondirebear
Bree

Feb 12 2013, 7:37pm

Post #31 of 39 (105 views)
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plot hole [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially since Balin is shown to have dark hair in the flashback, and Thorin looks exactly the same. So apparently Balin ages but Thorin does not? Presumably so we can have a young and dashing protagonist with no sign of aging, because, GOD FORBID!!!

This business with directors conforming to expectations of young heroes has got to stop. General audiences can either learn to like the original story or perform an anatomical impossibility.

The lack of a long beard, sky blue hood, and a silver tassel coupled with the fact that he looks like Jack Sparrow makes me not want to glorify him by calling him Thorin.

"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien


aarondirebear
Bree

Feb 12 2013, 7:41pm

Post #32 of 39 (93 views)
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HOW [In reply to] Can't Post


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Doesn't change the fact that I would have thought it very interesting seeing a character of such importance in a much more unconventional design than what one usually see in film. Even if the change makes sense, it still disappoints me, because I wanted to see it unchanged.


How does it make sense? It makes none whatsoever.

"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien


aarondirebear
Bree

Feb 12 2013, 7:43pm

Post #33 of 39 (95 views)
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and i will fight [In reply to] Can't Post


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-- but I suggest that disagreeing with him on the grounds that he should have stuck more closely to the book is a bit misguided!


I find your suggestion offensive.

"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien


aarondirebear
Bree

Feb 12 2013, 7:48pm

Post #34 of 39 (91 views)
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the contrary [In reply to] Can't Post


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I agree with you on the wagging. It's hard to imagine a short beard like movie-Thorin's doing any wagging. So, it is a change!

I hope you're at least glad that Dwalin's beard isn't blue...


I am absolutely livid about that actually.
And before you moan at me about your precious "realism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rinse

There. Solved it for you. He is doing something usually associated with old ladies. But still possible.

"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 12 2013, 8:20pm

Post #35 of 39 (91 views)
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*pftttbbbbbtwpppp* [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to know you take the important things in life so seriously.

Blue rinse is also associated with horse rumps, at least in my experience. But that's a whole 'nother story.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Feb 12 2013, 9:47pm

Post #36 of 39 (89 views)
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*hands aarondirebear a pair of glasses* [In reply to] Can't Post

Here, methinks you need to look at Thorin a bit more closely. Compare his look in Erebor, at the anvil at the end of the prologue, at Azanulbizar, and in, say, Bag End. There's quite a progression in ageing through that sequence, including a receding hairline and increased greying.

You go ahead and not call him Thorin. A rose by any other name...



aarondirebear
Bree

Feb 13 2013, 6:11pm

Post #37 of 39 (81 views)
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no there aint [In reply to] Can't Post


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Here, methinks you need to look at Thorin a bit more closely. Compare his look in Erebor, at the anvil at the end of the prologue, at Azanulbizar, and in, say, Bag End. There's quite a progression in ageing through that sequence, including a receding hairline and increased greying.

You go ahead and not call him Thorin. A rose by any other name...


Jack Sparrow then, Jack Sparrow now.
If Balin goes from full black to full white, then so should Thorin.

"Others are inclined to say that any two stories that are built round the same folk-lore motive, or are made up of a generally similar combination of such motives, are "the same stories." Statements of that kind are not true, they are not true in art or literature. It is precisely the colouring, the atmosphere, the unclassifiable individual details of a story, and above all the general purport that informs with life the undissected bones of the plot, that really count." J.R.R. Tolkien


marillaraina
Rohan

Feb 13 2013, 11:03pm

Post #38 of 39 (75 views)
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but [In reply to] Can't Post


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In Reply To
Here, methinks you need to look at Thorin a bit more closely. Compare his look in Erebor, at the anvil at the end of the prologue, at Azanulbizar, and in, say, Bag End. There's quite a progression in ageing through that sequence, including a receding hairline and increased greying.

You go ahead and not call him Thorin. A rose by any other name...


Jack Sparrow then, Jack Sparrow now.
If Balin goes from full black to full white, then so should Thorin.


Except Balin didn't go from full black to full white. He went from very grey to full white. Thorin was clearly portrayed as years younger than Balin in the flashbacks. He was shown to be a young dwarf and Balin was a middle aged dwarf in comparison. Now he's more of an early middle aged dwarf, with still mostly black but some grey/white in his hair and Balin is an older middle aged dwarf with white hair.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Feb 14 2013, 12:54am

Post #39 of 39 (158 views)
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Grey and white hair color is very individual [In reply to] Can't Post

My father's hair was completely grey/white by the time he was 30. On the other hand, my mother didn't get white hairs until she was in her 60's and now at 70 her hair is still a mix of blonde and white. I'm stuck in the middle--at 49, my hair is about 1/2 grey, with white streaks and some dark blonde left. I also have a friend whose hair went completely white by age 20! And then there's beards...which can be a different color from scalp hair.

I did notice the changes in Thorin's hair over the various scenes in the prologue, and he has some grey streaks in AUJ. So there is really no reason why Balin couldn't be white-haired while Thorin is still mostly dark-haired, and I believe Balin is older.

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'

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