Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Question regarding Dwarves being considered "of age".

Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Feb 1 2013, 11:58am

Post #1 of 13 (1771 views)
Shortcut
Question regarding Dwarves being considered "of age". Can't Post

I have been wondering recently about the age at which Dwarves are considered mature and "battle-ready".

At the time of LotR, Gimli is, I believe, around 125 years old. This means that at the time of The Hobbit, he would have been about 65. Now, some have suggested that the reason's for Gimli's non-participation in the Quest for Erebor was that he was not yet mature and at the age at which a Dwarf is considered battle-ready (what this age is supposed to be I have no idea, but I would harbour a guess at 70ish, since that is what age Fili and Kili are, roughly.)

Consider this though - about 150 years prior to the Quest for Erebor, a young Dain Ironfoot not only took part in the Battle of Azanulbizar, he single-handedly defeated and slew the Orcs leader, Azog. This was considered a great achievment not because he slew Azog, but because he was so incredibly young when he done it. At the time of this event, Dain was only 32 years old, which in Dwarf years is considered very young and several decades shy of what is believed to be battle-readiness.

So, what's the deal? Gimli is apprarently too young to take part in the Quest for Erebor, yet Dain Ironfoot fights in an arguably more danagerous scenario in the Battle of Azanulbizar at half the age?

I've saw some people say that the reason for Gimli not accompanying his father on the Quest was because their had to be an heir left behind to carry on the line should Gloin perish. And at first I thought "ok, that seems logical." Only, it doesn't. By that logic Dain should have stayed at home while Nain fought against the orcs Crazy

Anyone got any thoughts on this? It's not particularly important in the grand scheme of things, but it has been on my mind for some time.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 1 2013, 1:47pm

Post #2 of 13 (880 views)
Shortcut
It was a suicide quest [In reply to] Can't Post

Gloin probably felt obliged to go, but why would he drag his son into it? He had to know there was a good chance they wouldn't be coming back


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 1 2013, 1:47pm

Post #3 of 13 (874 views)
Shortcut
Gimli did indeed stay home because he was too young. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's how he himself explains in "The Quest of Erebor". That Dáin fought at such a young age does not disprove his statement; As you say, Dáin's feat was noted as incredibly impressive for the fact that he was as young as he was. Dáin was an exception, Gimli was the norm.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 1:57pm)


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 1 2013, 1:59pm

Post #4 of 13 (854 views)
Shortcut
Whereas the War of Dwarves and Orcs... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was more of a crusade, a race-wide call for revenge that every dwarven house answered. In their desire for revenge, the dwarves may have been less critical of who was drafted, instead hoping for as great a host as they could muster. Dáin's feat would be impressive still, of course, but he might not have been the only youngling present; I believe Glóin may also have fought at Azanulbizar (he is noted as having been one of those who followed Thráin and Thorin to Dunland; I'm not sure if that is supposed to have happened instantly after the battle), though he was but 16.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 2:08pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 1 2013, 3:32pm

Post #5 of 13 (826 views)
Shortcut
It may be more of a matter of perceived maturity than actual age... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli might not have seemed mature enough to go with his father. We don't know anything about his behaviour from his younger days.

Was Dain officially allowed to accompany the dwarf soldiers to Moria? Or did he pull an "Eowyn Maneuver" and disguise himself as an older warrior? Maybe his serious demeanor and earnestness overcame his youth in the eyes of his elders.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Feb 1 2013, 3:36pm

Post #6 of 13 (803 views)
Shortcut
I thought this may have been the case. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...was more of a crusade, a race-wide call for revenge that every dwarven house answered. In their desire for revenge, the dwarves may have been less critical of who was drafted, instead hoping for as great a host as they could muster. Dáin's feat would be impressive still, of course, but he might not have been the only youngling present; I believe Glóin may also have fought at Azanulbizar (he is noted as having been one of those who followed Thráin and Thorin to Dunland; I'm not sure if that is supposed to have happened instantly after the battle), though he was but 16.


Still though... 30 years shy of maturity is a big stretch. Perhaps Dain was just overly mature (physically and otherwise) for his age, and was thus deemed eligible to fight despite his lack of years and experience.


florian
The Shire

Feb 1 2013, 4:15pm

Post #7 of 13 (796 views)
Shortcut
Well, maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

by the time Gimli was born the birth rate among dwarves had dipped so low that children were very rare and their society's notion of maturity shifted so that one was still considered a child even at 60 something years of age.


Macfeast
Rohan


Feb 1 2013, 4:30pm

Post #8 of 13 (776 views)
Shortcut
Good point. [In reply to] Can't Post

With so many dwarves lost in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, birthrates is bound to have taken a toll, and it makes sense that they'd be a little more vary about letting the next generation go out and risk their lives.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 1 2013, 4:31pm)


Fishbug
The Shire


Feb 1 2013, 7:20pm

Post #9 of 13 (750 views)
Shortcut
Every child is a blessing. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
by the time Gimli was born the birth rate among dwarves had dipped so low that children were very rare and their society's notion of maturity shifted so that one was still considered a child even at 60 something years of age.


Sounds reminiscent of the Krogan in Mass Effect.


florian
The Shire

Feb 1 2013, 8:47pm

Post #10 of 13 (743 views)
Shortcut
I'm not familiar with this. What is it? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
by the time Gimli was born the birth rate among dwarves had dipped so low that children were very rare and their society's notion of maturity shifted so that one was still considered a child even at 60 something years of age.


Sounds reminiscent of the Krogan in Mass Effect.



IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 1 2013, 9:47pm

Post #11 of 13 (727 views)
Shortcut
Have to agree [In reply to] Can't Post

We are told that the kind of the dwarves increase slowly because women are at best 1/3 of the population and some never marry. It makes sense that they would guard their children well.

Of course this does not explain why Thorin would have allowed both Fili and KIli to come on the quest as they are so to speak the heir and the spare of Durin's line.


hutch
Rohan


Feb 2 2013, 2:57am

Post #12 of 13 (680 views)
Shortcut
Movie Gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

probably would've been more of a handful than Fili and Kili combined.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 2 2013, 4:33am

Post #13 of 13 (1295 views)
Shortcut
I think so [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Was Dain officially allowed to accompany the dwarf soldiers to Moria? Or did he pull an "Eowyn Maneuver" and disguise himself as an older warrior? Maybe his serious demeanor and earnestness overcame his youth in the eyes of his elders.

That has always been how I see the situation. I haven't read the Appendices again carefully, but for some reason I have the impression that Dain's killing Azog was a surprise attack.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.