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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"I have never been so wrong!"
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Old Toby
Grey Havens

Jan 30 2013, 3:49pm

Post #51 of 65 (302 views)
I'm totally with you Owain [In reply to] Can't Post

and you state things so nicely! :)

I love this scene actually. I never thought it cliched at all. (I guess I don't know what the cliche is, so never saw it as one.) I always took Thorin's speech here (after I had seen it) not as the beginning of a berating, but as an admission of his own mistakes, listing all the things he said to Bilbo that were wrong. I also loved how Bilbo was expecting this to be another berating (as were we), and how he was looking so uncomfortable and unhappy. So I really liked how this part was done, and probably the audience (myself included) at this point didn't know if Thorin was serious or not. So when he admitted his error and gave Bilbo the hug, that moment became so much more meaningful than it would have if Thorin had simply apologized with nothing more leading up to the apology. And as you pointed out, Thorin up until this moment had publicly scorned Bilbo, and his public apology was all the more fitting, and showed Thorin to be one who wasn't above admitting his own mistakes in front of his own followers. A man of pride yes, but also with some humility. All of this I think will make his descent into....whatever he descends to in the future films...even more heartbreaking.

Oh, and I love Thorin's smile at the end. He smiles so seldom. Smile

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Jan 30 2013, 4:06pm

Post #52 of 65 (297 views)
Yes, that worked [In reply to] Can't Post

It was, however, a completely different circumstance. We already know that Aragorn is pretty extraordinary. Gimli and he have a long history by then, and I think JRD's line reading for that moment was spot on in terms of relief and respect. Poor Richard didn't really have the same motivations for his, and that's what the armchair screenwriters continue to harp on. Myself, I wasn't bothered by it at all.

I mean what are you going to write it as instead?

"Thanks Bilbo, for saving my life?" or some variant, is okay, but delivery would be everything in that case. Low-key line deliveries may seem more honest, but they aren't theatrical enough for this kind of film.


Jan 30 2013, 4:26pm

Post #53 of 65 (278 views)
Saw my first 3D without HFR yesterday [In reply to] Can't Post

and I think I liked that even better than 2D.

I say think because I hated it at the start, it was even washier and blurrier than 2D but with 2D it remained pretty much the same throughout whereas with 3D, I felt my eyes adjusted as they did a little way into my first HFR viewing. Until they did though the blurryness of the motion made me a bit dizzy.

With both non HFR versions it is like watching something filmed with a fine cover over the lens like they use to hide wrinkles and make people look younger, just a bit finer than that in this case though. Lots of clarity and detail lost.

3D HFR any day.


Jan 30 2013, 4:28pm

Post #54 of 65 (286 views)
Good post [In reply to] Can't Post

and i agree this has been talked about quite a lot, yet here we are talking about it again, lol.

I agree, he couldnt have just said, thanks a lot Bilbo. Would have felt flat, or relied completely in RA's delivery of the line. PJ likes the delivery of lines to be more theatrical than not as well. For me if delivered in a different way could have worked better, but ultimately its a small scene which due to there being 3 films was pretty much needed and i do feel it will increase our understanding of Thorins heartache later on in film 3.

As you say there is a difference here and with Gimli. I also think there is a difference between this and the book, as in the book its a much shorter - i was wrong speech as its one short line, this seems to be quite a bit longer.

It's a fine balance they have to get between being realistic and putting in good performances and being theatrical enough that it matches the fantasy action scenes so the dialogue doesnt seem muted in comparison.

It does seem like for lots it worked, for lots of others it didnt, really split people down the middle.


Jan 30 2013, 4:53pm

Post #55 of 65 (285 views)
I've noticed PJ's directoral style is very into line readings. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the vlogs (and in the LOTR extras) he tends to get up and actually act it out for the actors, exactly the way he wants it to be delivered. So I would imagine this was done precisely how he wanted it to be done.

In Reply To
PJ likes the delivery of lines to be more theatrical than not as well.


Jan 30 2013, 5:21pm

Post #56 of 65 (269 views)
Yeah i think it was done exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

how he wanted it. I just dont like how he has it so hammy for some scenes.

Like i said above its hard to get the balance between being too subdued and drowned out by all the CGI etc and making it too theatrical, clearly lots like his balance. For the most part i do, just some scenes it tips into eye rolling, lol.

Superuser / Moderator

Jan 30 2013, 6:43pm

Post #57 of 65 (258 views)
Remember the FOTR DVD extra [In reply to] Can't Post

where Christopher Lee was talking about the more than 20 takes for the scene where Saruman and Gandalf are walking in the gardens at Orthanc? He said, "Peter wanted this word up, this word down..." PJ is exacting when he wants something specific from his actors - although compare this to RA's comment about how Peter would give specifics to some actors and leave RA to react as he would, as a kind of guerilla directing.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories


Jan 30 2013, 7:06pm

Post #58 of 65 (252 views)
It probably depend on how personally invested PJ is in the scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially if it's something he wrote, or has mapped out in his head for years. I doubt it's a reflection on any particular actor--it's not like Lee and McKellan need a lot of hand holding to do their jobs.

It's funny, in one of the vlogs he is with Andy Serkis and is complaining that Andy gets to do all the fun second unit stuff, while he has to film all the dialogue. I can't imagine he would let anyone else do it!

Tol Eressea

Jan 30 2013, 7:07pm

Post #59 of 65 (260 views)
I thought is was going to be Great (with a capital G), no matter what. [In reply to] Can't Post

And it turned out to be just "really good". Where the LotR films, on my mind, are all 10s, AUJ hovers around 8.5.

I loved everything in the Shire. And while i had problems with the stone giants and the Radagast/orc chase, i liked pretty much everything up to when the company leaves Rivendell. But after that, the movie lost me. Apart from the absolutely brilliant Riddles in the Dark, it seemed to be just one action set piece after another, with little time for character or personality or reflection. And i did not think PJ would be capable of that. Even King Kong, which is the very definition of bloat, always had time for small moments between Kong and Anne. So the last 1/3 of AUJ was a real let-down, and i never, ever thought that would happen. I'm hopeful that the EE will help alleviate this a little.

So while i didn't go around shouting that is was definitely going to be Great, just like LotR, in my mind i thought it, and that was a bit of a disappointment. So i was wrong about that.

On all that other stuff... I still think that Thorin should have looked a bit older, but he's fine i guess. Kili still doesn't look like a dwarf, and i didn't think much of his character even though the filmmakers obviously did-- but he didn't really bother me all that much. Radagast was fine. And i still don't like the changes to Middle-earth's history that the inclusion of Azog brought about, which is how i felt before i saw the film. So all that's pretty much how it's always been for me.

Tol Eressea

Jan 31 2013, 1:40am

Post #60 of 65 (233 views)
Hey thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, and I love Thorin's smile at the end. He smiles so seldom.

I agree. Richard Armitage has a subtle, simmering intensity and there is a life behind those eyes. His whole countenance completely changes when he smiles.

Fantastic performer... can't wait to see he does next!

Thanks for your thoughts as well!

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Jan 31 2013, 2:21am

Post #61 of 65 (244 views)
Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW, welcome to Rivendell, Kirly!

if only we could really visit Middle earth. but, alas, no magic.

aren't you so very glad we didn't get 13 Gimlis?? LOL

btw, Aragorn never really was eye candy to me when LOTR was in the theatre. it was always Legolas. That's no longer the case. I guess my taste has evolved.

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:


Jan 31 2013, 3:10am

Post #62 of 65 (237 views)
RA [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
I agree. Richard Armitage has a subtle, simmering intensity and there is a life behind those eyes. His whole countenance completely changes when he smiles.

Yes, yes, yes to this!


Feb 3 2013, 8:55pm

Post #63 of 65 (190 views)
This was one of the times when being too busy was a good thing :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't believe how many months have gone by that I've been very pre-occupied on other TORn business that has cut in on my postings; but for something like this, it's been fortunate.

First draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - updated list coming soon


I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!

TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)

Grey Havens

Feb 6 2013, 7:31pm

Post #64 of 65 (176 views)
Rationalizing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this post (follow the reply link back) simply rationalizes a cliche used as a cheap trick by Peter Jackson. It was transparent manipulation and all about Jackson underestimating the audience and nothing about character. As many say about Armitage's (not Thorin's - there's a difference) feigned anger followed by gratitude, "Who does that?" But I don't fault the actor. I fault the director for playing an audience who believes in him.

Tol Eressea

Feb 6 2013, 7:33pm

Post #65 of 65 (223 views)
Mmmkay.// [In reply to] Can't Post


Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."

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