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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A point about the White Council attacking Dol Guldur
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Arandir
Gondor


Jan 26 2013, 6:28pm

Post #26 of 41 (203 views)
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Quote [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
...we got the Balrog in the Two Towers in a manner of speaking, didn't we?


In that case, that doesn't mean we won't get at least a few minutes of Smaug in Film 3 ... that still qualifies as a valid argument Tongue

'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' Review


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jan 26 2013, 7:14pm

Post #27 of 41 (210 views)
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Gandalf in DOS [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is clearly just important as Bilbo in these movies which I think has pull on DOS. Gandalf will be leaving at the beginning of the movie at Beorn's. Now, obviously we are going to get a lot of Gandalf still in the movie (he seems to be the most recognized character in all 6 movies). This leads me to believe that all of the Dol Guldur plot will be in DOS. Gandalf will be away from the company the whole movie and you know he's getting a ton of screen time still. Too little Gandalf and I will be ANGRYYYYYY! Mad


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 26 2013, 7:34pm

Post #28 of 41 (195 views)
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I can see the possibility of starting with a flashback... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In that case, that doesn't mean we won't get at least a few minutes of Smaug in Film 3 ... that still qualifies as a valid argument Tongue


If there is a good enough reason for it, anyway. We could see a repetition of the climax from a slightly alternate perspective which reveals something that wasn't shown originally. For example, it could seem that Bard is dead at the end of the DoS, but is shown surviving at the start of TaBA. I simply can't see how you could reduce Smaug's death in full into a mere footnote at the start of the third film.


Quote
Gandalf will be away from the company the whole movie and you know he's getting a ton of screen time still. Too little Gandalf and I will be ANGRYYYYYY!



No, I don't "know" that. In fact, I'd argue very much the opposite. The fact that Gandalf leaves the Company needs to have an impact on the audience and that simply won't happen if he's still starring half the film. He needs to feel absent and the audience needs to miss him like Bilbo does. While he has an important task ahead, it should only given sparingly through brief snippets, and the climax of his story in the DoS should be the discovery of the Necromancer's true identity. It would simply feel far too detached and unrelated to learn that the main bad guy from the LotR-trilogy is hiding in Mirkwood and see him get unceremoniously disposed of on the side with no connection to the main storyline. The Necromancer-subplot must serve the story of Bilbo and the dwarves.


Arandir
Gondor


Jan 26 2013, 7:50pm

Post #29 of 41 (200 views)
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I think *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post


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I simply can't see how you could reduce Smaug's death in full into a mere footnote at the start of the third film.


That is why, in my own opinion, I believe Smaug's presence will grace the screen for more than just a few minutes in Film 3.

When you have a Trilogy like this, with Smaug as the main villian, it would be rather unwise to bring about his demise by the end of Film 2. The narrative simply doesn't hold. Why kill off your main villian out of an entire trilogy half way through?

The Necromancer storyline is, as the name suggests, a sub-plot and although it is a vital connection to the Lord of the Rings, it cannot supersede the main storyline of The Hobbit itself.

I believe we will witness Smaug's attack on Lake-Town at the end of Film 2 and end it as a cliffhanger on the fates of the characters. Having also resolved the White Council sub-plot by this stage, Film 3 will start off from there and proceed to the central set-piece of Smaug's fate (similar to the Pelennor Fields in RoTK) and then build to the main climax of the BoFA.

Of course, Film 3 could still implement a few references to the whole Necromancer/Sauron storyline (in anticipation of the events in LOTR), but that should be solved by Film 2.

'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' Review


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 26 2013, 7:59pm

Post #30 of 41 (194 views)
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I am inclined to agree. There is a LOT to cover as it is. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain, Beorn, Mirkwood, Gandalf's investigations and confirmations, spiders, Thranduil and his Elf folk of the GreenWood, Dale,a subsequent meeting of The White Council ( a bit of a tacky, cheat to just have them suddenly show up with no further debate), Smaug. Smaug, and SMAUG! Better, perhaps, to put the final confrontation in Dol Guldur on near the start of the last film, with the larger battle of Armies towards the back end.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 26 2013, 8:24pm

Post #31 of 41 (187 views)
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You are missing the point of The Hobbit, I think [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When you have a Trilogy like this, with Smaug as the main villian, it would be rather unwise to bring about his demise by the end of Film 2. The narrative simply doesn't hold. Why kill off your main villian out of an entire trilogy half way through?



The defeat of the dragon, as impressive as it is, is a secondary feat in the story. It's all about how achieving your goals and defeating the dragon is not the end of your troubles or a solution to anything by itself. You are thinking of the story like Smaug's death was the ultimate climax and everything after it just a little mop-up of the loose ends. But it's actually that stuff after the dragon's fall that really matters, that should truly stick to people's minds about the whole affair.

I don't see Smaug dying halfway through, but two thirds through the trilogy, at the end of the DoS. This way he can get the climax that he truly deserves without taking away from the truly important ultimate ending of the Battle of Five Armies. This is the only way that I can see both of those scenes having all the impact they need to have, without competing with each other for the limelight.


Quote
The Necromancer storyline is, as the name suggests, a sub-plot and although it is a vital connection to the Lord of the Rings, it cannot supersede the main storyline of The Hobbit itself.



To this I must answer yes and no. Yes, the Necromancer's subplot is secondary in the sense that it can't drive the story on its own. Its events must support the events of the main quest in order to justify its existence in the trilogy. It must be tied to the main story with every possible plot thread that PJ can come up with to make it seem connected. Most likely parts involve the fate of Thrain and the fear that Smaug might become a pawn to the Necromancer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this threat actually manifested in the films, with Smaug's attack being actually incited by Sauron's words, rather than Bilbo's.

But no, it can and does supercede the main plot of The Hobbit, because it deals not just with the fate of one dwarf kingdom, but the fate of the Middle-Earth itself, and ties directly to the greater epic of the Lord of the Rings. It can't end on a whimper halfway through the story, it must link directly with the climax to act as a bridge between the two trilogies. There must be a clear sense of interconnection between what happens at the end of The Hobbit and the beginning of the LotR and that connection is the Necromancer.

Since the climax of Dol Guldur can't stand on its own, it must be made to serve the main plot. It can kill two birds with the one stone, since it neatly also resolves the discrepancyin the threat escalation that the story would otherwise suffer from It gives a dark, sorcerous force behind the mere orc army that wouldn't be terribly impressive on its own after the dragon. The book even features unexplained thunderstorm and flock of bats that seem to imply involvement of evil magic in the battle, so the connection is easy to add.


Quote
I believe we will witness Smaug's attack on Lake-Town at the end of Film 2 and end it as a cliffhanger on the fates of the characters.


I've said it before and I say it again, The Hobbit is not a TV-series. You can't end a fantasy epic on a cliffhanger without first providing a satisfactory climax. Dol Guldur can't provide one on its own, especially not in the detached, purposeless sideshow fashion that you are trying to pass it as. The only climax left to do at that point is Smaug's death.

Incidentally, how you you resolve in your mind the assumption that the second film will end with Smaug's attack, but somehow Smaug's death will only happen halfway through the third film? What happens in between? Is he the slowest flying thing in the history of Middle-Earth? Even if he is, what will fill up that empty space in the story? There is nothing that you can put in there to justify that pass of time.


EDIT:

Quote

Thrain, Beorn, Mirkwood, Gandalf's investigations and confirmations, spiders, Thranduil and his Elf folk of the GreenWood, Dale,a subsequent meeting of The White Council ( a bit of a tacky, cheat to just have them suddenly show up with no further debate), Smaug. Smaug, and SMAUG!



Indeed. The way I expect things to go is to have a three-hour film with the first half devoted to Beorn and Mirkwood and the second to Laketown, the Mountain and Smaug, with the stuff with Gandalf and the White Council mixed in the middle. 1,5 hours should be plenty of time to deal with all the dragon-affairs -- there are entire feature films resolving the fate of the world in that time!


(This post was edited by Lightice on Jan 26 2013, 8:26pm)


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 26 2013, 9:13pm

Post #32 of 41 (157 views)
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Well, I guess from now on we... [In reply to] Can't Post

... would just go in circles. We can agree to toally disagree ;)


emre43
Lorien

Jan 26 2013, 10:04pm

Post #33 of 41 (154 views)
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Yeah definitely [In reply to] Can't Post

They wouldn't necessarily even have to speak. Just be present, that would have been good. They could have hired anyone to play Glorfindel anyway as he wasn't in LOTR and Cirdan's was such a brief role and far-off shot that anyone could have played him as well.


Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Jan 26 2013, 10:52pm

Post #34 of 41 (144 views)
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This all day: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why should it be rushed?

We will have two major storylines in DOS: The Company and Gandalf/WC.

Speaking about the use of time, I don't see why this could not work in DOS when it worked in TTT.

I think it is easiest to compare the Gandalf/WC story with the Rohan storyline in TTT.

In TTT, this storyline covered the whole introduction of Rohan and its characters, the way to Helm's Deep and the actual Battle (plus intercuts to Merry and Pippin). The same amount of time could work very well imho for Gandalf realizing that the Necromancer is Sauron, the information of the WC and the attack.

The only issue I see is the distance between Dol Guldur and Rivendell... so it would work much better if the second WC meeting would take place somewhere else (Lorien, even Rhosgobel or Beorn's House).



Having both Dol Guldur and the Bot5A in one movie would be a major mistake imho.

TABA should - imo - have the death of Smaug within its first 30 minutes and then have the reactions to his death as the major theme - the conflict between the Free Peoples.



arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 27 2013, 4:58am

Post #35 of 41 (122 views)
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How to spread Smaug across two films.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Incidentally, how you you resolve in your mind the assumption that the second film will end with Smaug's attack, but somehow Smaug's death will only happen halfway through the third film? What happens in between? Is he the slowest flying thing in the history of Middle-Earth? Even if he is, what will fill up that empty space in the story? There is nothing that you can put in there to justify that pass of time.


Scenes for Smaug in DOS:
-Possible reminder he is there and not entirely asleep, at some relevant point (maybe as the Dwarves approach the mountain, look for the secret door, etc.)
-Scene with Bilbo
-Scene of Smaug attacking the mountain-side
-Cliffhanger ending- furious Smaug makes a beeline in the direction of Laketown, with the ruins of Dale prominently seen below, and the camera follows the dwarves' journey to the mountain backwards towards laketown, which is shown being blissfully unaware of what is heading for it.

Scenes for start of TABA (with and without Smaug, not necessarily in quite this order):
-Dwarves at the Mountain, recovering from the attack of Smaug and preparing for his possible return, discussing what to do
-Something involving Bilbo's observation about the weak spot and the thrush to set that up
-Back to Laketown, scene as Smaug makes his initial approach and people become aware of the danger.
-Scenes of characters in Laketown reacting to Smaug's attack, fleeing, helping each other, shooting at him, sending to the Elves for help, etc. (I would figure this for a big action sequence with character moments, children and women in jeopardy, fires and explosions, etc.)
-Thrush travelling to Laketown
- Matters at Laketown going badly, Bard being heroic.
-Thrush arrives and communicates with Bard and Bard, with his special arrow, kills Smaug,
-Smaug's spectacular death and crash to the ground.

I would not guess this would take half the movie. But it would not be a "footnote", it would be a series of scenes and include lots of Smaug and lots of action.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 27 2013, 8:43am

Post #36 of 41 (121 views)
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I am inclined to agree on the overwhelming majority of this. [In reply to] Can't Post

And, I expect the timeline to play out much as in the bottom lines. A Thrain flashback, perhaps, either as prologue or at Beorn's, Beorn of course, Mirkwood parting, Gandalf in Dol Guldur, spiders, Elves, Dale, Smaug, meeting of the White Council ( I do so hope at Lothlorien. . . maybe the Mirror even will be put to use for visions of what may come to pass should the Council fail to act Shadow and Flame in Lothlorien, Dragon fire in Rivendell and across Eraidor, Angmar restored, that sort of thing), and then more Smaug. I will admit, I am not certain Smaug's fall will happen in Desolation. It is possible that it could be in the first quarter of the final movie. I really don't know. I am inclined, however, to also think it will happen near the very end of Desolation of Smaug, along with The Council deciding to assault Dol Guldur.

In Reply To

In Reply To
When you have a Trilogy like this, with Smaug as the main villian, it would be rather unwise to bring about his demise by the end of Film 2. The narrative simply doesn't hold. Why kill off your main villian out of an entire trilogy half way through?



The defeat of the dragon, as impressive as it is, is a secondary feat in the story. It's all about how achieving your goals and defeating the dragon is not the end of your troubles or a solution to anything by itself. You are thinking of the story like Smaug's death was the ultimate climax and everything after it just a little mop-up of the loose ends. But it's actually that stuff after the dragon's fall that really matters, that should truly stick to people's minds about the whole affair.

I don't see Smaug dying halfway through, but two thirds through the trilogy, at the end of the DoS. This way he can get the climax that he truly deserves without taking away from the truly important ultimate ending of the Battle of Five Armies. This is the only way that I can see both of those scenes having all the impact they need to have, without competing with each other for the limelight.


Quote
The Necromancer storyline is, as the name suggests, a sub-plot and although it is a vital connection to the Lord of the Rings, it cannot supersede the main storyline of The Hobbit itself.



To this I must answer yes and no. Yes, the Necromancer's subplot is secondary in the sense that it can't drive the story on its own. Its events must support the events of the main quest in order to justify its existence in the trilogy. It must be tied to the main story with every possible plot thread that PJ can come up with to make it seem connected. Most likely parts involve the fate of Thrain and the fear that Smaug might become a pawn to the Necromancer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this threat actually manifested in the films, with Smaug's attack being actually incited by Sauron's words, rather than Bilbo's.

But no, it can and does supercede the main plot of The Hobbit, because it deals not just with the fate of one dwarf kingdom, but the fate of the Middle-Earth itself, and ties directly to the greater epic of the Lord of the Rings. It can't end on a whimper halfway through the story, it must link directly with the climax to act as a bridge between the two trilogies. There must be a clear sense of interconnection between what happens at the end of The Hobbit and the beginning of the LotR and that connection is the Necromancer.

Since the climax of Dol Guldur can't stand on its own, it must be made to serve the main plot. It can kill two birds with the one stone, since it neatly also resolves the discrepancyin the threat escalation that the story would otherwise suffer from It gives a dark, sorcerous force behind the mere orc army that wouldn't be terribly impressive on its own after the dragon. The book even features unexplained thunderstorm and flock of bats that seem to imply involvement of evil magic in the battle, so the connection is easy to add.


Quote
I believe we will witness Smaug's attack on Lake-Town at the end of Film 2 and end it as a cliffhanger on the fates of the characters.


I've said it before and I say it again, The Hobbit is not a TV-series. You can't end a fantasy epic on a cliffhanger without first providing a satisfactory climax. Dol Guldur can't provide one on its own, especially not in the detached, purposeless sideshow fashion that you are trying to pass it as. The only climax left to do at that point is Smaug's death.

Incidentally, how you you resolve in your mind the assumption that the second film will end with Smaug's attack, but somehow Smaug's death will only happen halfway through the third film? What happens in between? Is he the slowest flying thing in the history of Middle-Earth? Even if he is, what will fill up that empty space in the story? There is nothing that you can put in there to justify that pass of time.


EDIT:

Quote

Thrain, Beorn, Mirkwood, Gandalf's investigations and confirmations, spiders, Thranduil and his Elf folk of the GreenWood, Dale,a subsequent meeting of The White Council ( a bit of a tacky, cheat to just have them suddenly show up with no further debate), Smaug. Smaug, and SMAUG!



Indeed. The way I expect things to go is to have a three-hour film with the first half devoted to Beorn and Mirkwood and the second to Laketown, the Mountain and Smaug, with the stuff with Gandalf and the White Council mixed in the middle. 1,5 hours should be plenty of time to deal with all the dragon-affairs -- there are entire feature films resolving the fate of the world in that time!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 27 2013, 12:21pm

Post #37 of 41 (126 views)
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Basically, you are giving the exact reasons why I find the Smaug-prologue a terrible idea. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
-Cliffhanger ending- furious Smaug makes a beeline in the direction of Laketown, with the ruins of Dale prominently seen below, and the camera follows the dwarves' journey to the mountain backwards towards laketown, which is shown being blissfully unaware of what is heading for it.



Yeah, that is the TV-series ending that I was talking about. That's not how you end an epic fantasy film. People want to see a big battle or some other climactic event at the end, not a promise that they will totally see one in six months. That is not how film pacing works.


In Reply To
I would not guess this would take half the movie. But it would not be a "footnote", it would be a series of scenes and include lots of Smaug and lots of action.


That is exactly a footnote. That is compareable to the action openings of James Bond films where stuff blows up and Bond does badass stunts with zero context before the story proper begins. And that is a terrible way to treat Smaug as a major villain of the story. He needs a memorable sendoff, a true climax in his own right.

What you are basically explaining here is that Smaug needs to be swept under the rug as much as possible, showing him as little as you can in all three films, recude his dramatic impact as much as you can. I say that he needs to dominate the second half of the DoS with his presence and be the most memorable, powerful experience in that film, thus freeing the third film from the dilemma of competing climaxes and dealing with the aftermath with the seriousness it deserves.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 27 2013, 3:31pm

Post #38 of 41 (98 views)
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DoS [In reply to] Can't Post

I see your point about DoS, to an extent. I would guess if I am right about Smaug's death, that the solution will be invented material, whether involving the White Council story thread, or the Azog/Bolg/Orcs story thread, or making the Dwarves' entry into the mountain more dramatic in some way.

Calling the death of Smaug a "prologue" though, is not an accurate characterization of my suggestion. I'm not good at guessing times for individual scenes, but roughly it is something that would take place perhaps 30 minutes into the DoS movie, and only after several scenes, taking place in various locations and involving distinct groups of characters. Including more than one scene of large-scale action in Laketown.

But it is my opinion that Smaug dying within 20 minutes of the end of DoS would be a far bigger problem for the third movie. (And him dying even earlier, would be an even bigger problem, for it as well as TABA!) I would not debate that the "true" climax of the novel is the Bo5A, it is and it will be in the films in my view. But in the novel, this is quite surprising. The expectation is that the book will be about getting rid of Smaug and restoring the dwarves' treasure/kingdom. One keeps reading past it if one has liked the book to date expecting a wind-down to satisfying happy ending. If the number of pages left seem on the long side, well, there is a lot set up in the book that could happen in winding down. The rebuilding of the mountain and Dale and Laketown, telling us the future fates of the many characters we have met, Bilbo's return home, etc. If one has found the characters and situation interesting up to that point, it's just a matter of turning the next page.

AUJ has followed the book in this, likewise to date building the audience expectation that this movie series is about how Thorin, Bilbo, and the Dwarves return to Erebor and restore that kingdom. This is how the story is presented in Bag End, in the Rivendell scenes of Thorin and of the White Council, in the Misty Mountains scenes of Bilbo and Bofur talking, and Bilbo's rejoining the Company, and the scene atop the Carrock. I think DoS will very much do the same through much of its running time. AUJ as an adaptation, has more-or-less given us all of the main scenes of the Hobbit in the order in which they occurred in the book (with changes/embellishments of course). I thus expect to see Dwarves captured by Elves (and needing to escape before Durin's Day). And the Men of Laketown being excited about the return of the King Under the Mountain as in the book. And the Company travelling to Erebor and searching for the hidden door. All of which (as in the book) continue to build the audience expectation that this is a movie about getting rid of Smaug. Regarding the added material, it seems we have been told we will see how Gandalf got the key and map from Thrain - this scene would also emphasize that this series is about the dragon/restoration of Erebor.

I can see what you are suggesting is that after the death of Smaug the movie could start to set up the final climax. My problem with that is that I think, to get the audience to the point of understanding that no, they have been mistaken for a good 3 1/2 hours plus about this series, and that further, that the series is really about something *else* so interesting and worthwhile that they will wait 6 months and come back to view a final movie resolving this something else, would take too much time. Coming back for a third film in six months is a lot more involved than turning the page... I think if DoS accomplished this, it would also leave too little for TABA - I think it needs to contain a good part of the set-up for the battle to work, as there is a definite limit to how much of the movie could be just the fighting.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 27 2013, 4:39pm

Post #39 of 41 (92 views)
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Adding more problems does not make good solutions. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm not good at guessing times for individual scenes, but roughly it is something that would take place perhaps 30 minutes into the DoS movie, and only after several scenes, taking place in various locations and involving distinct groups of characters. Including more than one scene of large-scale action in Laketown.



The fall of Laketown is one event, one large scene, which I expect to last about 15-20 minutes, culminating in Smaug's demise. But it's not something that can start a film; it needs all the scenes between Bilbo and Smaug behind it to create a proper buildup. The audience needs to see Smaug developing from a lazy, smug boaster into a force of destruction. Slice that in half, and this development does not stick with the audience. Furthermore, as soon as they lay their eyes on the sleeping dragon, its very existence is a promise of a major action scene involving him by the climax. This is the absolute rule of narrative convention: buildup will not be cut off from the action, itself.


Quote
But it is my opinion that Smaug dying within 20 minutes of the end of DoS would be a far bigger problem for the third movie. (And him dying even earlier, would be an even bigger problem, for it as well as TABA!).



I don't see why what you describe would be a problem, at all. In fact, what you present as solution is far more likely to emphasise the biggest problem of the third film. This problem ofcourse is that the third film will revolve around the Battle of Five Armies, and there's a lot of work that has to be done in order to give the film more content than just action scenes after action scenes. It can be done, mind you, when you involve Thorin's descent, Bard's rise to leadership, Bilbo's conflict of loyalty and Gandalf's storyarc. But what you suggest is addding yet another epic battle scene in the same film? When the problem is that there's too much battle in a film, the solution is not to add yet another battle right at the start.

The surprise factor is most definitely still there, as well. In fact, the surprise works far better when you don't put Smaug's death at the start of the third film, which would make it obvious for everyone that the dragon is just a sideshow of that story; especially since the trailers are bound to foreshadow the great battle, anyway. Show the seeds of conflict manifesting in the epilogue of the DoS and add in the great revelation of Sauron's return, and you will be sure to keep the audiences interested for the unexpected plot-twist of the third film.


(This post was edited by Lightice on Jan 27 2013, 4:39pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 27 2013, 10:43pm

Post #40 of 41 (87 views)
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Huge agreement on the dissapointment. Especially about Glorfindel and Cirdan. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know they were there. MAAAAYBE we will get a fuller council in the next films. According to the visual companion, the film team realizes that the four we have seen are members, but NOT the only members. So there is hope yet, albeit small (made smaller by the fact that they don't even acknowledge Glorfindel's major role in the overthrow of Angmar).

In Reply To
The only thing that disappoints me is that Celeborn, Cirdan, Glorfindel (and perhaps Thranduil) are not members.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 27 2013, 10:50pm

Post #41 of 41 (186 views)
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Agreed, though there was a cameo Glorfindel in LOTRs [In reply to] Can't Post

It was supposed to be the Elf in front of Arwen in Minas Tirith. . . but everyone with sense knows it was the Elf beside Elrond.

https://www.google.com/...res.html%3B302%3B239


In Reply To
They wouldn't necessarily even have to speak. Just be present, that would have been good. They could have hired anyone to play Glorfindel anyway as he wasn't in LOTR and Cirdan's was such a brief role and far-off shot that anyone could have played him as well.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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