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MysterClark
The Shire
Jan 21 2013, 4:11pm
Post #1 of 24
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Witch-King: Wizard Killer?
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Last I checked the Brown Wizard's future is still in question, but is it possible that he is killed by the Witch-king? I suppose anything is possible, but I was just thinking while watching ROTK earlier today. I know when prequels are made they sometimes like to add stuff in that'll give lines in the originals a new or fuller meaning. The lines I'm talking about is when the Witch-king is talking to Gothmog.
"What of the White Wizard?"
"I will break him"
Chances are he's just talking tough, but what if he's talking from experience? They already started a fight that Radagast apparently ran away from. What if they finish it later on? I'd say it makes him a bit more scary if he's taking out Wizards. We also know he basically had Gandalf beaten if the pony party didn't arrive.
Guess we'll find out in a year or so...
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Arthael
Lorien
Jan 21 2013, 4:26pm
Post #2 of 24
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Would definitely make him an even more menacing villain. I wasn't a fan of his cartoony look in AUJ, so I hope they bring the terror back for a DOS climax. The thought of him getting special enjoyment out of taking out Istari gives me chills...
"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."
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MasterOrc
Rivendell
Jan 21 2013, 4:47pm
Post #3 of 24
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staff breaker..... Could be a hobby of the Witch-King 
I just don't see Radagast getting killed. Wouldn't make sense...
Maybe Gandalf's staff gets destroyed in the battle of Dol Goldur and Raddy gives him his as a replacement..??
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Arandir
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 4:49pm
Post #4 of 24
(626 views)
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we're back to square one when it comes to how the Men of the North managed to entomb ALL the ringwraiths practically single-handedly.
With your suggestion, whilst it reinforces the idea of the dangerous presence of the Witch-King (especially in the lead-up to the RoTK scenes), it will undermine the Istari's power as not being able to stand-up against the Nazgul - when Men could imprison all nine of them ... 
'The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey' Review
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 5:18pm
Post #5 of 24
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Radagast didn't run away (from the Witch-King, at least) and actually beat him off in a fight (or at least "banished" him). But I'm guessing that this is because the Witch-King is in a weaker form (i.e. he's not fully formed in physical terms). Given that the Witch-King at his most powerful wiped the floor with Gandalf the White, you may have a viable proposition.
I just hope Raddy doesn't die though (I'm hoping against hope!)
"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"
"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 21 2013, 5:51pm
Post #6 of 24
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Gandalf the White is weakened in the movies
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It's implied an orc would have killed him at Minas Tirith had it not been for Pippin. In balltle he fights just like Gandalf the Grey would with hardly any magic at all.
In the books Gandalf the White would more than hold his ground agaisnt the Witch-King.
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 5:53pm
Post #7 of 24
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Yes, obviously I was talking about the film and not the book//
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"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"
"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."
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MysterClark
The Shire
Jan 21 2013, 5:56pm
Post #8 of 24
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Yes, it does kind of undermine the Istari's power to be beaten by other beings in Middle-earth, but at the same time how many wizards are there, yet they couldn't take out Sauron by themselves?
It took all of Gandalf the Grey's might to take out one Balrog when people in the past were fighting numerous Balrogs.
It really makes it seem like there were many more magic-doers in the Ages before the Istari. Isildur apparently put a curse on hundreds of men that kept them from dying for thousands of years.
I would have liked the Istari to be the most powerful beings, but then you'd have to wonder why it took so long for them to clean house.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 6:01pm
Post #9 of 24
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Middle-earth Role Playing stuff with these films. Book characters are being much more broadly interpreted in the films, and in some ways 'weaker'. Gandalf the Gray vs. Balrog, yeah that's a real contest. Gandalf vs. the Witch King, not so much, that's film, not book. It's an interesting idea, but it's being done for dramatic effect.
We're going to see some more blood pressures rise if that Galadriel rescue thing is actually a real scene.
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 6:16pm
Post #10 of 24
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Yes (to your last point), mine will be going through the roof!
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Of course, it depends how it is handled by Jackson. He's annoyed me in the past, but he's never really done anything to make me dislike him as a filmmaker. Yet.
Anyhow though, even if Gandalf is made to look weak in DOS it doesn't matter too much-he was given several moments of glory in AUJ which were unexpected and welcomed (most notably the dramatic sorcerous blast upon his arrival in Goblin-Town).
If TABA spends most of it's time following Bilbo and Thorin's story (as it should do), then Gandalf's role in the film could be fairly minimal.
"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"
"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 6:34pm
Post #11 of 24
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Radagst did not run away from the WK.
He went to the top shelf of his Pantry of Awesomeness, got down his biggest can of whupass, opened it up, smacked the WK around the head with it and said "OK princess...I'll take that Morgul Blade now"
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 7:25pm
Post #12 of 24
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1) You have to look at the circumstances 2) Istari are no warriors but advisors
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1) This is not a Card Game. You have to look at the circumstances
Look at Saruman. Gandalf the Grey wasn't able to defeat him but a normal man (Grima) was? Look at Sauron, he defeated hundreds of Elves and Men and even Gil-Galad, Elrond or Elendil had no chance against him but it was a normal man (Isildur) who defeated him. The Witch-King was defeated by a woman and a hobbit although he killed Theoden and almost killed Gandalf aswell.
Are Saruman, the Witch-King or Sauron weak just because they were defeated by mortal guys? NO! And it's the same with Gandalf the White. He is not an invinsible god-like being.
I just want to quote Pippin from ROTK: The mightiest man may be slain by one arrow... and Boromir was pierced by many
2) The Istari are no warriors but advisors
They wasn't allowed to use their full powers to challenge Sauron or to controll other beings in Middle-earth. That's why Saruman was banished from the order. Almost like a Jedi an Istari shouldn't use his powers to attack but to help and defend the free people.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 21 2013, 7:44pm
Post #13 of 24
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And even though I'm not really a big fan of the way the scene was executed, I don't think the Witch King being able to break Gandalf's staff is that ridiculous. Tolkien said the Witch King's power was increased during the siege of Minas Tirith. That doesn't necessarily mean he should have been able to take on Gandalf, but I think it's at least possible.
Weirder things have happened. Didn't Gothmog (the balrog) die by being headbutted into a fountain by an elf?
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 21 2013, 7:45pm)
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MysterClark
The Shire
Jan 21 2013, 8:07pm
Post #14 of 24
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As said before, Gandalf the White was almost taken out by a single Orc. So it makes sense to me that perhaps the Witch-king might be on a mission to rid the world of the Istari. Yes, he might not as always been as strong to take them all on, but maybe after taking out the lower level Wizards he's hungry for more.
And as much as I love him, I highly doubt Grima would have had any chance at all had Saruman even had the faintest idea he would do that.
The Istari may be like Jedi, but the Jedi didn't stop when a large threat came to the galaxy to get in an all out war. They didn't always wait for the enemy to take the first shot, but it was in the name of defense.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 8:15pm
Post #15 of 24
(459 views)
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Book WitchKing = Waiting around for Sauron to recharge, and keep all things until his master's return
Movie WitchKing = Anything goes
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Jan 21 2013, 8:39pm
Post #16 of 24
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Just a quick point. When Grima killed Saruman, Saruman had been stripped of his powers by Gandalf and his staff broken (no doubt acting through the Valar). Although still a Maia, what was left of his physical strength seems to have been greatly diminished.
It may also depend on how much the use of their powers affects Wizards, both mentally and physically. There may need to be a recovery period to be fully effective.
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jan 21 2013, 9:17pm
Post #17 of 24
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it is clear that Gandalf fears The Witch King. Not that WK could bully Gandalf like he did in the film, but Gandalf did fear him.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Jan 21 2013, 10:40pm
Post #18 of 24
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That the Nazgul were, according to the filmakers vision of the hobbit, just "mere mortals dabbling in black magic" who got killed and buried? And that their undead forms are just the result of sauron using his necromancy on them? Think about it:
1. "A dark magic dwells in there...one that could summon spirits of the"...cue Witch King's apppearence..."dead."
2. "When Angmar fell, they took his body, and all that he possessed and buried it deep within the tombs"
3. "How do we know that this dagger came from Angmar's grave?"
But then again, why would they have to worry about burying him "so deep that he would never see the light of day"? It's all just weird, and I hope they dont mess with the nazguls orgins.
(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jan 21 2013, 10:40pm)
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IdrilofGondolin
Rohan
Jan 22 2013, 1:16am
Post #19 of 24
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Radagast didn't run away (from the Witch-King, at least) and actually beat him off in a fight (or at least "banished" him). But I'm guessing that this is because the Witch-King is in a weaker form (i.e. he's not fully formed in physical terms). Given that the Witch-King at his most powerful wiped the floor with Gandalf the White, you may have a viable proposition. I just hope Raddy doesn't die though (I'm hoping against hope!)
Remember that Gandalf meets Radagast in FOTR. Radagast is sent by Saurman to find Gandalf and send him to Isengard. So Radagst is not going to die in any of these movies.
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painjoiker
Grey Havens
Jan 22 2013, 2:16am
Post #20 of 24
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But not in the movies...
Radagast is screwed 
Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor
Jan 22 2013, 7:08am
Post #21 of 24
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The fact that he's alive in FOTR is no guarantee of his survival
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PJ will want to explain why he doesn't appear in LOTR (the movies). Remember they killed Haldir in the film who didn't die in the book. He doesn't have to die, but it's very possible that he will.
Believe me, I am far from alone in taking this viewpoint!
"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"
"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."
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Boromir Stark
Rivendell
Jan 23 2013, 12:55pm
Post #22 of 24
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If they stick to the literature...
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then Radagast will survive, as he is still alive at the time of the War of the Ring. That said, his role in LotR was removed from the movies, so they could technically shorten his lifespan.
I wouldn't be overly upset if they killed him off in the Hobbit movies. I'm not his biggest hater, but neither am I his biggest fan - the rabbit sled, the stick insect scene and his cringe-worthy "Rhosgobel rabbits!" speech really annoy me.
If they do kill him off, it will most likely be when the White Council attack Dol Guldur - Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond (maybe Beorn, as well?) beseiging the Necromancer and the Nazgul. Perhaps Radagast rematches the Witch-King, but this time he is struggling, and maybe Saruman notices, but chooses to do nothing and allows Radagast to be killed??? I could live with that.
Following the battle, as he lies dying, Radagast gives his staff to Gandalf, his own staff having been broken in the battle.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 23 2013, 11:07pm
Post #23 of 24
(247 views)
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THE EE ROTK scene was so wrong I can only thank God it was EE only and not Theatrical
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The reasons for the problem have been stated elsewhere. Yet, in a nut shell, while Tolkien went a little ambiguous in the book for dramatic purpose, he had already told you who was mightier, through Gandalf himself, and later in his own letters. Gandalf The White was the single migthiest being in Middle-Earth aside from Sauron himself. Gandalf the Gray had defeated a Balrog, a Maiar Demon: a lieutenant of Melkor The Morgoth, an evil spirit of great power who had been present before the world and played a part in its creation. Even if Tolkien had not later stated as much (which he did) that such a being would be mightier than the Witch-King would seem almost a given. Yet by Tolkien's own later account, it is said that The Balrog would have been the greatest known evil power in the world in The Third Age, aside from Sauron. Recall that ALL of The Nine veer away from Gandalf The Gray whilst the sun is in the sky, and he fends off all of them together from the following dusk until dawn.
Also, Radagast clearly defeats the Witch-King in their brief encounter. It is Sauron whom he flees. Last I checked the Brown Wizard's future is still in question, but is it possible that he is killed by the Witch-king? I suppose anything is possible, but I was just thinking while watching ROTK earlier today. I know when prequels are made they sometimes like to add stuff in that'll give lines in the originals a new or fuller meaning. The lines I'm talking about is when the Witch-king is talking to Gothmog.
"What of the White Wizard?"
"I will break him"
Chances are he's just talking tough, but what if he's talking from experience? They already started a fight that Radagast apparently ran away from. What if they finish it later on? I'd say it makes him a bit more scary if he's taking out Wizards. We also know he basically had Gandalf beaten if the pony party didn't arrive.
Guess we'll find out in a year or so...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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sycorax82
Rohan
Jan 24 2013, 12:47am
Post #24 of 24
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I want him dead and resurrected as the Mouth of Sauron
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Either that or he becomes a hedgehog! 
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