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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How will this line of dialogue from FOTR now fit in? ***spoilers!!***
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Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 21 2013, 4:03pm

Post #26 of 32 (90 views)
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And then there's Gandalf & Galadriel's viewpoint [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite true, that from Elrond and/or the other Elves' perspective, rousing Smaug would expose them all to danger - if the dwarves didn't succeed in killing him, where on Middle-earth :-) did they expect him to go? And same re the Balrog - from their perspective this quest was another example of how dwarves "care nothing for the troubles of others" and would endanger others. However, where does that leave Gandalf and his decision to help Thorin, and Galadriel specifically saying he was right to do so? Gandalf explains to the Council that he fears that the dragon could eventually used by 'the enemy', but a) no one can even get into the mountain, and b) the dragon's sleeping at the moment and has been for quite a while. Yet the two of them think it's the right thing to do. So was it truly 'not wise'? Either they are both going on instinct of some kind, that they 'feel' there's something about the quest that is meant to be and going to eventually (way, way down the line, eventually) work out or they have a more understanding perspective of the dwarves' plight and maybe their motivations as well. Maybe a little of both. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out :-).


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 21 2013, 6:05pm

Post #27 of 32 (82 views)
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All the races keep to themselves [In reply to] Can't Post

Men, Elves, Dwarves...they all seem to be weary of each other. Only when a greater threat arises do they work together.


Gelir
Bree

Jan 21 2013, 11:00pm

Post #28 of 32 (60 views)
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However... [In reply to] Can't Post

The dwarves aren't entirely to blame, in my opinion. The way the elves and men approached the dwarves, it's little wonder that they weren't inclined to be friendly. What would have happened if Bard had come alone, and respectfully asked for a share of the gold? Thorin was suffering from the "dragon sickness" and maybe nothing would have changed his attitude, but then again, it's possible that things would have gone differently.

Instead, the raven told them an army of men and elves was on the way, and so the dwarves felt that they were coming to steal what was rightfully theirs. It certainly makes sense to me that they wouldn't have wanted anything to do with the Elvenking. Not saying the dwarves were completely in the right, but to me it's not as simple as "the dwarves were greedy."

If I won millions and was suddenly independently wealthy, there are people I'd share it with. If they were suddenly outside my door with a gun, I might feel a bit differently about it. Especially if one of those people had locked me up in the basement of their house not that long ago. :)


Gelir
Bree

Jan 21 2013, 11:10pm

Post #29 of 32 (54 views)
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Very good points [In reply to] Can't Post

And I was thinking the same about Gandalf myself. In the LotR appendices, he and Thorin meet by chance and Gandalf is very eager to talk to Thorin about the dragon. Without Gandalf, I don't think the dwarves would have set out on the quest at all.

I hadn't thought about Galadriel telling Gandalf that he was right - I'm glad you brought that up because it is interesting that she is in favor of it in the movie.


Gelir
Bree

Jan 21 2013, 11:27pm

Post #30 of 32 (58 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea if the refugee aspect has anything to do with what the film makers had it mind. Maybe for them it's all about the elves not helping in battles. But for some reason I just thought about that angle right away, though I sort of thought that it was just my own take on it. It was nice to see Silverlode's post with the same opinion. Not sure if it'll be addressed in the next film, but I'm looking forward to finding out in about 11 more months. :)


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 22 2013, 3:43am

Post #31 of 32 (49 views)
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Burglar? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thorin and Co were very concerned about getting Smaug OUT of the mountain. Perhaps killing him was considered, but honestly, I think Thorin after seeing the aftermath of the initial scourge, wasn't too sure if it was possible, and even if he thought so, wouldn't it be VERY likely that no one else thought that a rag tag group of 13 dwarves and one hobbit could possibly defeat a dragon, especially since there's a good chance by his reaction at Bilbo's that Gandalf himself has never slain a dragon either


It seems even less plausible to me that Thorin might have believed that, having somehow gotten Smaug out of the mountain, he could hope to keep Smaug out of the mountain with 13 Dwarves. (Especially in the film, when he saw firsthand how completely ineffective the front gate and his grandfather's soldiers were for this same purpose in the past). Why expect Smaug to attack Esgaroth and then head out elsewhere, rather than the mountain itself again, (where his hoard of gold is, after all?)

So I figure that plan has to have been something involving stealth. But also the killing of the dragon.


The Red Avenger
Rivendell

Jan 28 2013, 6:05pm

Post #32 of 32 (52 views)
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Elrond is right! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that will become self explanatory by the time of the Battle of Five Armies - the dwarves basically turn on the elves and men saying only they are entitled to the riches in Erebor. Although Bard is of Dale-stock and also entitled to it. The dwarves become very singularly minded don't they - so for me Elrond's version fits well.

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