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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
It works with Azog-possible spoilers

Cirashala
Gondor

Jan 21 2013, 7:42am


Views: 120
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It works with Azog-possible spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

To begin with, I have read the books, I have read Tolkien's letters, I have read appendices, as well as done much research about Tolkien's dwarves, particularly this company. And most of the time I am a book purist (to some extent).


However, I also am familiar enough (being as how I am a visual learner) of techniques that must be modified to change a book into a visual medium in an effective way.

While I agree that part of the Azog story (such as his "prosthetic" for example) are a little bit cheesy, I have to say that it would have confused the audience very greatly to have Bolg, the son of Azog, who wasn't even killed by Thorin Oakenshield but rather by Dain Ironfoot (a character that hasn't been introduced yet), seeking revenge for his father's death, when in movie canon (ie LOTR) and from what I can tell (haven't quite finished reading LOTR yet only about 2/3 of the way through the book-have a preschooler hindering that!) familial relationships among orcs isn't really discussed in much detail.

So, the first point of confusion is-if we stuck to the book, why would Bolg seek revenge on THORIN when DAIN is the one who killed Azog? If you read the books and the backstory, you would understand maybe, but that would require Bolg being fully aware of Dain being at BO5A, and even in the book, it seems a bit muddy as to HOW he would have known since the Elves and Men didn't even know Dain was coming until Bilbo informed them.

And why did he target Thorin instead of the dwarf who actually killed his father? For revenge of the Great Goblin, who, since Bolg was an orc (and Tolkien may have used it interchangeably at first, but by the time LOTR and the appendices and unfinished tales and such came around, he had begun to differentiate between the two) he could target Thorin, but since the Hobbit indicated that he was seeking revenge for his father, it does not make much sense for him to target Thorin over Dain.

And lastly, family relationships. If even by the end of AUJ we can infer but still don't know for sure (unless you are a book reader, which some of the audience is not) that Fili and Kili are Thorin's nephews, and have only rhyming names and a reference to Balin and Dwalin being brothers, and the indication because of their simultaneous arrival and speaking off each other with Fili and Kili asn being brothers, then how can the audience expect to know that Bolg is Azog's son? And we have also seen that Orcs don't value family and honor like dwarves do. So even if the familial revenge was in the book, the audience simply WON'T GET IT, at least not without some convoluted explanation dialogue, which would have turned the movie into a narrated film and that gets tedious in many films.


So, I think Azog remaining the main villain in the first film, and tying up some continuity, and keeping the characters we as an audience have to figure out (come on, including Gandalf and Bilbo, we ALREADY have 15 people to get to know in a short span of time-given how many people versus 2.5 hrs) so adding the additional lineage for Thorin, plus Dain so early (despite the reference at the unexpected party) and having a rough time explaining dwarven loyalty to family murder, plus Thror being killed in a foolhardy attempt at Moria as opposed to battle, and having Thorin seek revenge many years later, etc. I think the film honestly, even if it wasn't true purism, made it so the audience didn't have two hours of pure backstory, confusing lineages, and narration instead of the current story being told.

Books being translated to media often have to have some simplification, some complication, and some adjustments simply so it makes sense to those who both have read the books and those who haven't. It wasn't til I saw LOTR EE with my husband five years ago that I even knew Middle Earth existed, and since then I own nearly every book Tolkien (or Christopher) wrote/compiled, have done countless hours of research, and even worked on a huge fanfic in my head that is constantly changing, make middle earth style costumes, have a book on learning to speak Sindarin, etc. And that would not have happened had I not seen the movies first. So, instead of debating purism vs movie canon, perhaps relish the fact that thanks to the movie, there will be a new generation of Tolkien enthusiasts who seek the books and literature to find out more about this wonderful Middle Earth that the movie hints of Smile

Certainly worked with me Wink


(and there is absolutely no offense intended to either purists or movie canon-just my simple take-one can enjoy both and like I had said before, its rough translating book with narration and dialogue into action and dialogue-I think PJ&co did good and bad but did their best with what they had)

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm

Subject User Time
Would it have been better with Bolg chasing the dwarves? Neaniver Jan 19 2013, 11:33pm
    Would it have made any actual difference to the story at all? Hamfast of Gamwich Send a private message to Hamfast of Gamwich Jan 19 2013, 11:57pm
    It doesn't really matter... Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 19 2013, 11:58pm
    I think this could have worked TheSexyBeard Send a private message to TheSexyBeard Jan 20 2013, 12:03am
        Then kill Azog in the second film Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 20 2013, 12:19am
    Well, I, for one... Kendalf Send a private message to Kendalf Jan 20 2013, 12:07am
    An Orc by any other name would smell as sweet. Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Jan 20 2013, 1:12am
        I agree with this... bborchar Send a private message to bborchar Jan 20 2013, 1:25am
            Totally agree! Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 20 2013, 2:16am
                Orcs procreate? Orc wives?...nasty. Me Send a private message to Me Jan 20 2013, 5:30am
                    They probably feel the same way about Humans, // Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 20 2013, 7:35am
    I would have preferred Bolg Fredeghar Wayfarer Send a private message to Fredeghar Wayfarer Jan 20 2013, 7:45am
    Too early to say.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Jan 20 2013, 9:14am
        Like a time travel story when a change is made... Brandybuckled Send a private message to Brandybuckled Jan 20 2013, 2:34pm
    I'd say no. Grant Send a private message to Grant Jan 20 2013, 5:01pm
    It works with Azog-possible spoilers Cirashala Send a private message to Cirashala Jan 21 2013, 7:42am

 
 
 

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