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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Difference between soundtrack and movie for the Thorin-strides-through-flaming-trees sequence
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hutch
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:32am

Post #26 of 43 (92 views)
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Not buying it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a huge defender of PJ and this production, but this choice just seemed lazy. Plan & simple. Not only does Thorin and Azog's grudge deserve its own theme/music it totally lessens the impact of dread and intensity when we hear it in LOTR. In LOTR that theme is associated with BUSINESS. The first time Frodo gets attacked by the Nazgul and that music is pumping, you're like "Oh, SH*T!!! RUN, FRODO!"
Serious business. This time around it was like "meh."
I sincerely hope this is changed in the EEs.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


(This post was edited by hutch on Jan 18 2013, 3:33am)


hutch
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:38am

Post #27 of 43 (85 views)
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Did they music use that for Isildur? (been a while since I've seen LOTR) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin seems much more to be following down that road than any other.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:40am

Post #28 of 43 (89 views)
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There are indeed some missing names lately... [In reply to] Can't Post

Unimpressed

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:46am

Post #29 of 43 (83 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

those posters from 2006-2009 were secretly part of PJ's crew, waiting around to get the film made, and the reason they don't post anymore is because they're too busy working.

There tends to be a ebb and flow around the film releases though. When the movies come out many newcomers arrive, as the films end and interest dwindles, the die-hards come back.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jan 18 2013, 3:54am

Post #30 of 43 (85 views)
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To be fair, [In reply to] Can't Post

there are plenty of names missing from as far back as 10 years ago. It's not necessarily a reflection of what's going on on the boards, but at least partially a reflection of Real Life intervening. Not that the feel of the boards is unchanged...but I'm not going there!


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 18 2013, 4:04am

Post #31 of 43 (85 views)
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no [In reply to] Can't Post

It pretty much covers this section:

Vast armies of Men, Elves and Orcs assemble on the battlefield. The Elves and Humans regard their enemies as the Orcs snarl back, taunting them. Then the Orcs attack the Alliance, rushing across the field that separates the two armies. The Elven lieutenant gives the command to the Elven archers to engage.

Elrond: Tangado haid! Leithio i philinn! (Hold positions! Fire arrows!)

The Elves raise their bows and release a slew of arrows at the oncoming Orcs, taking down the first line of Orc defense. As the wave of the Orc infantry reaches the first line of the Elven troops, the Elves swing their swords up, slicing the Orcs as they come, one after the other down the line. Soon the Eves and the Men are fully engaged in combat, taking down many of the Orc troops. The leader of Men raises his sword in triumph.

Galadriel in VO: Victory was near.


description and dialog copied from: http://www.council-of-elrond.com/fotrse.html

Here's a video where the person has just the music and action - dialog and sound effects not included. It shows what's happening as the Ringwraiths theme played.

http://youtu.be/Hjtbz178T5w?t=2m25s


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 18 2013, 4:07am)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 18 2013, 4:16am

Post #32 of 43 (80 views)
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addition to that post [In reply to] Can't Post

(I think my edit window will run out if I try to edit)

There's a pause of music after the portion of scene description and dialog I posted before. The pause covers this part:

Galadriel VO: But the power of the Ring could not be undone.

Sauron strides onto the battlefield. The Elven lieutenant looks up in trepidation. The Dark Lord, towering over both Elves and Men, brandishes a mace and shows the Ring of Power glowing on his finger. In fear, some of the warriors back off.

The the Ringwraiths music resumes during this portion:

Sauron wields his mace, hitting a group of warriors and sends them flying across the field. He repeats it with another fell swoop. The leader of Men raises his sword to strike Sauron, but Sauron parries the blow and flings his adversary (Elendil) against the rock, crushing him to death.

The music ends just as Elendil is struck down.

Doug says this in "The Music of the LOTR Films":

"Galadriel's narration illustrates the Battle of Dagorlad and the Last Alliance of Men and Elves wihich set out to meet Sauron head-on. But Sauron proves himself a formidible foe. With a scorching uproar of the RINGWRAITH theme, the Dark Lord sends his mace into the throngs of the Last Alliance, scattering broken bodies of his adversaries across the battle field."
(pg 136, all cap format is his, he puts all theme names in capital letters)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


SķlimŽ
Rivendell


Jan 18 2013, 4:16am

Post #33 of 43 (77 views)
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Good post! [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I associate the theme with "dire situations", so it fits the Thorin-charging-down-the-flaming-tree scene quite well. As far as anyone knows at that point, Thorin has zero chance of surviving the fight. I don't think the theme is meant to represent Thorin succumbing to a Ring of Power or the power of hate/revenge/pride.

Someone has said this already: Thorin's choice at that time is either to fall and die with the rest of the dwarves or face Azog and die in battle. His decision seems perfectly reasonable to me. Everyone knows that Thorin is walking to his death, and of course Thorin himself knows this -- so the music seems fitting.


 leniel Tindome
Bree


Jan 18 2013, 1:38pm

Post #34 of 43 (64 views)
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This! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm a huge defender of PJ and this production, but this choice just seemed lazy. Plan & simple. Not only does Thorin and Azog's grudge deserve its own theme/music it totally lessens the impact of dread and intensity when we hear it in LOTR. In LOTR that theme is associated with BUSINESS. The first time Frodo gets attacked by the Nazgul and that music is pumping, you're like "Oh, SH*T!!! RUN, FRODO!"
Serious business. This time around it was like "meh."
I sincerely hope this is changed in the EEs.



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jan 18 2013, 2:39pm

Post #35 of 43 (57 views)
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If you [In reply to] Can't Post

enjoy conspiracy theories, sure!Tongue

That is a good point and you could very well be right. Lets hope they come back, new blood is good but can seem , at times, a bit one dimensional.


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:45pm

Post #36 of 43 (57 views)
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I thought they were very interesting, Magpie. [In reply to] Can't Post

"But I think you're right about tying it to the Warg music because Doug did some tweets about this. I quoted them in another post here which I won't look up because no one thought it was very interesting when I posted it the first time so why bother again. *shrugs*"


Maybe I didn't respond, but I found them very interesting. I did try to summarize them earlier in this thread, though I am not nearly as knowledgeable about the music as you are, so I might have gotten my points wrong. Thanks for your posts in this thread - an unexpected, but pleasant, surprise.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 18 2013, 3:48pm

Post #37 of 43 (62 views)
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Lusitano, this is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about. [In reply to] Can't Post

Instead of simply stating why they don't like the use of music, the poster instead accuses PJ and shore of being "lazy". Despite clear evidence (there is another version of music recorded for this scene on the soundtrack) proving that it cannot be out of laziness.

Also, this lazy accusation has been made again and again and again and again and again. It's nauseating. And completely antithetical to a reasonable discussion of the soundtrack.

I have no problem with someone explaining why they think the choices made were poor. But this is entirely different.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jan 18 2013, 4:40pm

Post #38 of 43 (53 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree that, since we have the original music on the soundtrack, using the nazgul theme doesnt seem like a particularly lazy option. Then again, maybe oj didnt like shores creation and just lazyngly inserted that nazgul theme there at the last minute. Tongue

If youre walking out of the cinema ...i can seem as if lazyness was a part of it, but now that we have heard the original music, something else must have been decided.

So i agree that that argument is somewhat invalid.

As to thatbeing repeated ad nauseum, i dont know. Has it? I havent followed every discussion.

I have read some really thoughtfull criticisms.

Smile


hutch
Rohan


Jan 19 2013, 3:49am

Post #39 of 43 (34 views)
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Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I stated very clearly what my beef with the choice is:

1.Seems oddly lazy for a production of this caliber.
2. the grudge deserves it's own theme.
3. Lessens impact when we meet the theme further down the line in LOTR.

Is that outline good enough for you?

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


(This post was edited by hutch on Jan 19 2013, 3:53am)


hutch
Rohan


Jan 19 2013, 3:50am

Post #40 of 43 (35 views)
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not just lazy, but odd. [In reply to] Can't Post

The OST contains music not in the film because they decided to recycle music from LOTR?

Say what?!?!?! Crazy

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 19 2013, 3:51am

Post #41 of 43 (31 views)
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Furthermore: [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not accusing Shore of anything. I don't think I've mentioned his name thus far.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 19 2013, 3:54am

Post #42 of 43 (38 views)
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That! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 19 2013, 4:02am

Post #43 of 43 (36 views)
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I just don't like it [In reply to] Can't Post

It's cool that they're linking the trilogies together, but they shouldn't be bound and gagged to each other. The Hobbit should get a substantial amount of it's own cannon to give it its own foothold in the world of cinema. A theme for a grudg between a dwarf and orc-neither of which make it to LOTR-is a contender for this.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


(This post was edited by hutch on Jan 19 2013, 4:03am)

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