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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The Silmarillion discussion: Of the Beginning of Days

noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jan 14 2013, 4:29pm

Post #1 of 18 (1255 views)
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The Silmarillion discussion: Of the Beginning of Days Can't Post

I hope no-one minds me starting on the next Chapter?

So far we've discussed The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale and then The Silmarillion discussion: Valaquenta - those threads are still open for further comments if you missed the original discussion.

Following the usual pattern, I'll summarize some points in the chapter which stand out for me and suggest some topics for discussion. But I'm not at all in charge, so please feel free to raise any points that interest you or questions you have - its often interesting how differently different readers respond. It would be a pity if the conversation were restricted to just those things which strike the thread-starter!

Lastly - please do consider starting the next chapter yourself (when we have finished discussing this one!). Or a later one. I expect to be flagging rather after this....


Ainulindale ended with a war between the Valar and their enemies. The Valar, are a group of gods who have agreed to carry out the programme that an ultimate God (Eru, or Iluvatar) has for the world of Arda. But one of the gods, Melkor, has rebelled and at the end of the first chapter things seemed to have reached a stalemate or at least strong headwinds- "for as surely as the Valar began a labour, so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it." In Valaquenta, we broke off for a dramatis personae, and now we resume an account of this contest.

The Valar are reinforced by a new member, Tulkas, and are now able to drive Melkor out to "the outer darkness". This gives the Valar an opportunity to bring "order to the seas and the lands and the mountains" and to plant seeds and populate the world with animals. They also raise two mighty lamps at the far north and south of Middle-earth to illuminate things. However, this "springtime" does not last, because Melkor first secretly re-enters Arda and builds up his forces, then counter-attacks, catching the Valar by surprise while they are having a post-creation feast. The resulting destruction is colossal, including the breaking of the lamps. While the Valar are able to drive Melkor back into his stronghold, they are posed with a dilemma. They are eagerly awaiting the arrival of "the Children of Iluvatar" - elves and men - which are to be created directly by Iluvatar, or at least to "come forth" at a time which is unknown to the Valar. Fearing that further conflict would disrupt that plan, the Valar resort to partition. They "departed and went to the Land of Aman" and fortify and Melkor-proof the region of Valinor. A section of the chapter is given to describing Valinor. Most especially, The Valier Yavanna makes two trees which produce a glowing dew, one silver and one gold. "In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full and waned again to naught; and each awoke once more to life an hour before the other ceased to shine". This gives Valinor a 12-hour day. The excess glowing dew "Varda hoarded in great vats like shining lakes" (I guess this makes her Middle-earth's first VAT collector Smile).

Middle-earth remains mostly under the control of Melkor, and lit only by the stars. Some of the Valar, especially Ulmo, Yavanna and Orome visit Middle-earth at times and are a sort of war party in that they "ever urge the Valar to that war with his [Melkor's] evil dominion that they must surely wage before the coming of the firstborn".

The chapter ends with a discussion of
"the Children of Iluvatar" - the elves who are bound to the world of Arda (but who are practically immortal while it lasts); and men who die and depart "whither the elves know not. ...Yet of old the Valar declared that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur [i.e. a further creation of worlds and universes, like that described in Ainulindale]".

So some starter questions and comments (to reply to or ignore completely as you will!)

How long do you think all this is taking? "Time" seems to be a slightly different concept before the trees start "the count of days". But events at least do happen in sequence - one of the main characteristics of the passage of time. I've been imagining that the Valar and Melkor duke it out for aeons of geological time, so that the history of Arda rather resembles the history of our Earth as understood by geologists (except that Arda is being overtly shaped by supernatural forces). But that is an inference on my part - one could also envisage a much shorter period; what do you think?

I can't figure out he physics of those lamps - seems a bit worrying that things grow best at the equator (i.e. furthest away from the light source). Probably a minor error, but I'd be interested in any theories that would make this come out right!


It already seems to be a theme that evil always regroups and comes back? Do you agree? Anyone want to relate that to Tolkien's writing and thought more generally?

The first-time reader is not to know whether this episode has a lot of plot significance later, or whether it could theoretically have been cut, with the Valar establishing Valinor at the outset. There is a sense of things not really being resolved - the Valar/Melkor war has reached a cold-war phase rather than being endless cycles of creation and prompt destruction.

Yet again the Children of Iluvatar are mentioned, but their arrival seems no closer. What effect does this have for you? Rising tension? Pleasant anticipation? Impatience?

Writing style - we jump forwards at points and seem to get a description of Valinor as the Eldar remember it. At other points we are getting the story that the Eldar must have heard at one remove (or more).

...and just to recap, those are starter points; let the conversation go where it will (or even, "where it should")!






hanne
Rivendell

Jan 15 2013, 2:47am

Post #2 of 18 (509 views)
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a lamp theory :), returning evil, and beautiful trees [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice summary!


I have same problem with physics :) But one thought - I understood that at this point the world was flat. So the equator part could have had overlapping direct lamplight (depending on how they were angled towards the earth) and the north/south parts just light from one lamp each.


Re evil, I had thought that Tolkien was generally more concerned with how each individual became evil - which choices and attitudes led to that ruin. I hadn't thought in terms of evil as a force (or an unstoppable, in the long run, force). But now you point it out, it is true that both Melkor and Sauron each made three runs at world domination.

(hopefully cryptic enough to be non-spoiler version of what I mean:
M1: world wrecker pre Spring of Arda. M2: where we are now M3: a certain leaguer.
S1: werewolves. S2: Numenor. S3: a certain one ring.)

Though I suppose Morgoth gets a fourth in a final battle. But since it seems he will not win it, I think that ends the cycle. And LOTR also seems fairly clear that Sauron has shot all chances of coming back. Even the Music gets resung - in other words, the return of evil is not inevitable.


P.S. if you would like to sit back and have a zen moment of pure beauty, I recomend popping "two trees of valinor" into google image search and looking at the mosaic of results... gorgeous!


elevorn
Lorien


Jan 15 2013, 3:58pm

Post #3 of 18 (504 views)
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Time and Valinor [In reply to] Can't Post

I never have a problem or question of time, what is time to an immortal God or demigod? The elves have not come into the picture yet and are simply intimating what was passed down to them when they were in Valinor. So I think the essence of time is more for our understanding, when you live forever time seems to be a non issue and more of hinderance to keep up with, that is until you begin to keep records of the mortals around you who seem to die so quickly and easily.

The descriptions and foward jumps we get I feel are logical. The elvish writer (I'm assuming an elf here, apologies if I am wrong and have missed something), is telling us what we have been told and what he/she actually knows. There were no witnesses to the creation and wars of the Valar other than the participants, yet the elves knew exactly what Valinor was and what the trees were like, so it seems more logical that we have a clear description of a known entity.

A question that I always come up with is why the Valar begin to become so enamored with their own creation at this time. yes they are supposed to be making Arda a better place, but it seems that the seeds of selfishness begin to creep into their minds and deeds at this point in time, Yavanna and her trees, the stars, the waters, the mountains the winds. The withdraw to Valinor and make a nice place basically abandoning ME to the darkness because Melkor keeps breaking their toys, like a bully in preschool he knocks over every block tower they make. Anyone else have thoughts on that?



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jan 15 2013, 8:29pm

Post #4 of 18 (482 views)
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Lamps, regrouping evil and selfish Valar [In reply to] Can't Post

Lamps: Ah! that works. I'm imaging two quite directional lamps either side if a desk. The middle bit could be best lit. Happy now: Odd how these little details chafe and puzzle, even though they are of trivial importance.

I think one reason evil always regroups is that a lot of it for Tolkien stems from excess: wanting your own way too much and too quickly, or being over-enamoured of one's creations and skills. So it's not enough to chain up the evil one and cast him into oblivion- it's not entirely his doing. someone's bound to think they could profit from having him back, or taking his place.

The "selfish Valar" line of thought is interesting - I can see the point of what I called the "war party" (Melkor will need to be confronted, why not sooner). Maybe the idea of building up Valinor is not entirely selfless. It's going to have huge consequences in later chapters!


elevorn
Lorien


Jan 15 2013, 8:43pm

Post #5 of 18 (465 views)
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yes, it does [In reply to] Can't Post

But it always just strikes me when I read that so many of the powerful Valar just abandon the rest of Middle earth. Sure Orome and Yavanna go out here and there, and who can keep Ulmo in one place without a tall glass, but the rest just sit around the pretty lights of the trees and wonder to themselves when the Children of Illuvatar might come. Just seems they got tired of dealing with Melkor so fast and just kind of brished some of his stuff off like an unliked sibling. "Oh thats just Melkor filling the dark with terror, don't mind him." or "Yeah all those rumbles and flashes, its just Melkor again playing in his room."

Now, I'm not in any way saying that this is a hole in the plot or story, just a frustration I have with the Valar. They want to get all upset later on, but how many times did they have the chance to be rid of Melkor, or imprison him only for him to get out again. And then when we get to the thrid age, rather than being about their purpsoe of protecting and making sure Arda is a good place, they stay hidden from everyone and pout because the Noldor decided to live and the Numenorians became greedy. They just seem like children in their mindset (most of them, I actually like Aule and Tulkas and Orome). Think about it, Melkor was let loose, and not only that but the Maiar who follow him are jst ignored, and the Children of Illuvatar are born to darkness and fear for a huge part of them. (Do I sound like Feanor yet? Anyone want to steal a boat and leave?)




Wait till we get to the Vanyar I have a whole other statement about them (If You're so awesome why don't you come and whoop Sauron).



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Mim
The Shire

Jan 15 2013, 10:35pm

Post #6 of 18 (488 views)
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Inevitable evil [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say that the idea that evil always returns is at the very core of Tolkien’s writing. It is key, perhaps, that the conflict around which LotR is based is not the original war of the ring, it is the repeat. One explanation that exists within the text is that those who are good, do not understand the nature of evil. The reverse of that argument is of course also key, what is evil does not understand how it is to be good. Anyway the point is that those that are good often make the mistake of seeing the possibility of redemption in those that are evil. This is of course, as we find out later, why Melkor manages to keep causing problems despite being defeated on a few occasions. Each time the forces of good fail to strike the killing blow and allow Melkor to live and return. Perhaps more generally what this indicates is the willingness of people to allow evil to exist. Tolkien constantly presents us with characters from otherwise “good” peoples that are tempted to or in danger of becoming in some sense evil. Or rather, who are tempted to do evil. I would suggest that perhaps what these cycles and the constant presence of evil suggests is that evil…is necessary. Though perhaps necessary is the wrong word, perhaps the word is inevitable. From the very beginning of creation, Melkor seeks to create disharmony. There is hardly a time when there is no evil and therefore how can you ever hope to destroy something that is an integral part of the fabric of your world? I think the answer that Tolkien is getting at is that you can’t.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 2:08am

Post #7 of 18 (454 views)
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Is evil logical or intuitive? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points all around, Mim. In general, I think every cosmology struggles to explain why Evil persists--why doesn't Good just destroy it? Isnt Good all-powerful? If Good isn't all-powerful, should we make our own deal with Evil?

Tolkien is in the same boat with the rest of us and has to come up with something to explain why Evil is still around. It works for me because Melkor assembles a personality, more so than Satan, for example, and more so than the other Valar, in my opinion, and probably without Tolkien really intending it, so I see him as sticking around no matter what you do because he's cleverer than the rest.

My question comes from some criticism I read of Tolkien that he doesn't do enough to prove that the good guys are good and bad guys are bad. For me, it's intuitively clear, and to deliberately misquote Frodo, the Valar seem fair and feel fair. But playing devil's advocate (literally), does JRR show them as morally superior to Melkor? They create and he destroys. Is that it? How about other qualities that we consider virtuous? Are they more honest, humble, loving, selfless, protective of the weak, generous, brave, seeing the best in everyone? I don't mean just in this chapter, but throughout the book. Is it possible to interpret the conflict as merely ideological, where neither side is right or wrong, such as one political party wanting to declare January the Month of the Puppy while another wants to name it the Month of the Kitten? Are these just people fighting for control because they both want it?


CuriousG
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 2:21am

Post #8 of 18 (453 views)
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When you put it that way, it is a hole [In reply to] Can't Post

I also find it troubling that the Valar are supposed to be Guardians of the World, yet they surrender most of the world to Melkor--is that what Guardians do? Then it seems a little bit insulting that they let the rest of the world suffer under his corruption while they create their own private paradise. If I was one of the first Elves and came to the Sea and saw Happy Aman in the distance, I wouldn't have a good first impression of these other Valar in their exclusive country club all lit up by magic tree light while I was in the dark.

Maybe the logic that saves it all is that the wars are constant, and they risk killing the newborn Elves by mistake if the wars continue. Exterminating Eru's Children seems far worse than letting them spring to life in a world darkened by Melkor. Then there's the question of why doesn't Eru do something about it, or at least tell them when his Children will be born, but you don't get very far questioning God, who moves in mysterious ways.

It would also make sense that the Valar are immortal, so spending a few centuries or millenia with nothing to do but wait for new creatures to appear, you might as well get busy and do what you do best, which is make a beautiful land. In that regard they aren't selfish or irresponsible, they're just being patient and keeping busy, taking a short break in their conflict with Melkor, not giving up.

And maybe Tolkien was setting the Valar up to be flawed in this way to give some validity to Feanor later on? Where are those boats?!


CuriousG
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 2:53am

Post #9 of 18 (460 views)
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Even immortal elves can't escape Death and Taxes (VATs) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for another insightful lead-in, noWiz!

This chapter flows well for me in that we just read through all those lists of who's who, with little teasers about them, but now we see them in action. I actually like the Valaquenta on its own because I find it well-written and interesting, but for those who want some plot, now we get some payoff.

Yavanna question: I understand her motivation for wanting to wrest the world away from Melkor, but does it seem unusual for a Nature Goddess to espouse violence? And maybe her in particular, since she seems gentle in spirit, not a female Tulkas or an Eowyn. To fast forward, when she's distressed about her hubby's creatures cutting down her trees, she goes to Eru about it, and doesn't come up with a combative solution on her own. I can see Varda going to war, but Yavanna and Nienna? Just hard to picture them.

Time: funny, but I never thought about measuring it in this era, only later when the Elves are in Valinor. I think that prehistories that are all about gods usually span centuries or millenia. I wouldn't hazard an estimate here, but I'd says many centuries instead of a few years or months (as measured by our time units).

For the mention of the Children of Iluvatar: yes, I'm getting impatient at this point. Maybe Tolkien is good at building up anticipation, but I remember on first read that I wanted him to hurry up and show me some Elves.

Writing style: yes, it does bounce around some, though not too distractingly so for me. I'm traveling for a couple days and left Arda Reconstructed at home; maybe someone else can check it and see if this chapter was compiled from different bits or if Tolkien wanted it this way. I think the style remains evocative of the Bible, which bounces around in the early parts also and takes awhile to follow a linear path.

Alluding to my reply to Mim about Melkor having personality, what does everyone think about the Valar at this point: do their personalities seem developed now, or are you still waiting for them to take shape? One that never quite coalesces for me is Manwe. On the other hand, Tulkas takes shape easily--he's like any hero in an action movie, and seems rather simple-minded like one too. Is that too cliche?

Orome is intense in a likeable way, Mandos is more intense and more scary than likeable, while I never get a sense of Lorien, and Varda remains elusively ethereal, the opposite of Tulkas (and Ulmo, who feels as familiar as the Boxer God).

Aule is forever a kind-hearted dwarf to me. I would never invite Nienna to a party, but she would be a great shoulder to cry on if you needed one--which I suppose isn't very fair.

Melkor is always scary to me, but he feels familiar too, so "scary" in the sense of someone I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley, but not as scary as an evil ghost. The familiarity about him is maybe that we see into his mind more than anyone else's, or it seems that way to me.
[b][u]


CuriousG
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 2:59am

Post #10 of 18 (440 views)
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2 trees [In reply to] Can't Post

Silly as it is, I've never bothered googling images for the Two Trees before. You're right, there are some fantastic ones--I wouldn't have guessed that there are that many variations!


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 16 2013, 3:59pm

Post #11 of 18 (443 views)
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Nature is violent... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yavanna question: I understand her motivation for wanting to wrest the world away from Melkor, but does it seem unusual for a Nature Goddess to espouse violence? And maybe her in particular, since she seems gentle in spirit, not a female Tulkas or an Eowyn. To fast forward, when she's distressed about her hubby's creatures cutting down her trees, she goes to Eru about it, and doesn't come up with a combative solution on her own. I can see Varda going to war, but Yavanna and Nienna? Just hard to picture them.

Time: funny, but I never thought about measuring it in this era, only later when the Elves are in Valinor. I think that prehistories that are all about gods usually span centuries or millenia. I wouldn't hazard an estimate here, but I'd says many centuries instead of a few years or months (as measured by our time units).

Yavanna may be gentle, but Nature is violent. Predator kills prey and is sometimes killed in turn. Males fight and sometimes kill in order to mate. Animals (carnivores and vegetarians alike) drive off competitors and other perceived threats. Accident and natural catastrophe kills strong and weak alike. It would not be strange if some aspect of Yavanna's nature should reflect this. Time. Even though Tolkien was almost certainly not an Evolutionist, he acknoledges the existance of prehistoric beasts from eras that pre-date the awakening of Elves and Men. I agree that there must have been millenia between the creation of Arda and the time of the Sun and Moon.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


telain
Rohan

Jan 16 2013, 4:50pm

Post #12 of 18 (420 views)
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logical and intuitive? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I reread the first few chapters last night, I got the impression that allegiance to Eru was the benchmark of morality. We start having a problem when a Valar:
a) desires to be either more powerful than the others or more/at least as powerful as Eru,
b) desires/begins to create non-Eru music/creations (i.e., loss of harmony with the established Music is morally bad), or
c) desires/begins to disrupt the creations of either Eru or the Valar who are in keeping with Eru's harmony.

The values you describe

Quote
How about other qualities that we consider virtuous? Are they more honest, humble, loving, selfless, protective of the weak, generous, brave, seeing the best in everyone?

are tricky because they are ones that mortal, finite creatures might subscribe to (and maybe not even all mortal or finite creatures). Not to lean on such a well-worn argument, but it would be difficult to understand just what the Valar thought was "moral" or "virtuous", or even if they thought about things in those ways. Perhaps "allowing" elves and men to find their own way is a moral dictate that, when we consider it long enough, is for us far preferable to being more overtly directed -- as I am sure Melkor and/or Sauron would have wanted.

But the question about why evil persists is an interesting one and I agree, CuriousG, that all or most cosmologies have to deal with. I wonder that any type of destruction -- even the destruction of something evil -- is an evil itself. Can "ultimate good" be responsible for "ultimate destruction"? On the one hand, saving good/neutral beings from destruction by evil is a good in itself, but (as a few have suggested) the absolute termination of an evil precludes the ability to be reformed.

But, then, I'm just thinking out loud and will probably contradict myself before too long... Perhaps there is a certain arrogance to ultimate good... and ultimate evil...


CuriousG
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 7:42pm

Post #13 of 18 (419 views)
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TV nature specials [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points, Otaku. You remind me of the nature specials on TV, which are so contradictory. You'll see one that extolls the vritues of nature where everything lives in harmony and balance, and why can't industrialized, polluting society live that way? Then you can see another one showing lions killing their prey and eating their flesh while the poor things are still alive. Not a kindly aspect of nature.

My perception is that Tolkien mostly portrays Yavanna's personality as that of a gentle gardener/farmer who only wants everything to grow and prosper, the kind of person that Eowyn becomes when she marries Faramir. And while Orome is eagerly hunting and fighting Melkor's beasts at large, Yavanna is more like a gardener burying things under compost to wait for better days ahead, not a violent opponent of Melkor, more a passive one. But whether Tolkien shows it or not, you're right that she's responsible for both olvar and kelvar, and animals eat plants and each other, so she has violence in her domain of influence whether it's written about or not.


Mim
The Shire

Jan 17 2013, 11:38am

Post #14 of 18 (403 views)
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The reader knows evil when they see it [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that there are a couple of things that can be said in response to that criticism. I think the most obvious thing to say is that yes, its a fair point. Good characters do evil things and at times its hard to distinguish between what evil is doing and what good is doing. At this point, it is in a lot of ways just a power struggle and a territory battle. In The Silmarillion, it is hard for anyone to take a moral high ground. However, the reader still gets a very clear idea of who is good and who is evil. I rather think that is the point.

There is no universally satisfactory explanation for the existence of evil. Tolkien also doesn't supply us with a finite in text explanation either, yet we are all on the same page about what is evil. I think it would be a struggle to find anyone you could give Tolkien's work to, ask them who the good characters are and be told that Melkor, Sauron and Saruman are the persecuted good guys. So then the interesting question arises, why can we all so confidently know that Melkor is evil and the Valar are good. Well the obvious answer is because Tolkien is a writer and he tells us so, he's crafted his text in such a way that when we read thats the impression we get. I'm not so sure thats totally satisfactory, I think that there are far more universal things at work here. Partially I think, the ingrained belief that the majority are normally right is one factor. Melkor is out there on his own, the Valar are a large group. I think that plays on a natural distrust of individuals and it plays on readers insecurities. You don't want to be out in exile with Melkor, in the dark fortresses, you want to be in the gardens with everyone else. A belief which is reinforced by the suggestion that Melkor's largest group of followers have to be coerced into following him, ie the corrupted elves that form the basis of his orc armies. There are other examples, but this is already at risk of becoming too long an essay.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that yes, Tolkien doesn't really categorically make his evil characters evil and his good characters are more flawed than might at first seem appropriate. However, Tolkien doesn't really need to do more. Primarily because he constructs evil using elements that are inescapably a part of the basic conception of evil that is recognisable to most people. We know who is 'good' and who is 'evil' we don't need to be shown more because evil is something that is often constructed of more than behavior.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jan 24 2013, 9:42pm

Post #15 of 18 (378 views)
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The next chapter is underway ! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that it precludes further discussion here, but for those ready to Send in the Dwarves....
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=564817#564817


sador
Half-elven


Feb 4 2013, 3:23pm

Post #16 of 18 (329 views)
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Very late answers [In reply to] Can't Post

But I've promise, Mr. noWizardme, so here goes...

How long do you think all this is taking?
The first estimate of times I've seen for the Silmarillion events, was that made by Robert Foster in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. And he divided the time before the first rise of the Sun and Moon to sixteen or eighteen ages.
Later, I found out that Tolkien did make time estimates for this period, but I don't thinki these are more useful than Foster's division - which underlines your point: time as we know it seems meaningless (there is the wearing of all things in Arda, but even in Lorien the wearing is at a different pace from the outside world, so it is meaningless as a measurement).
However, there is a clearly-defined sequence.

I can't figure out he physics of those lamps - seems a bit worrying that things grow best at the equator (i.e. furthest away from the light source). Probably a minor error, but I'd be interested in any theories that would make this come out right!
Maybe the blend of light is the most beneficial to growth? Remember that at the time, Arda is conceived as flat, so the light would reach all of it.

It already seems to be a theme that evil always regroups and comes back? Do you agree? Anyone want to relate that to Tolkien's writing and thought more generally?
Classical theology.


The first-time reader is not to know whether this episode has a lot of plot significance later, or whether it could theoretically have been cut, with the Valar establishing Valinor at the outset.
I don't think this episode was written for its plot sifnificance.

Yet again the Children of Iluvatar are mentioned, but their arrival seems no closer. What effect does this have for you? Rising tension? Pleasant anticipation? Impatience?

It's just the first chapter - no need to hurry.
But the Valar feel the anticipation, as we will see in the next chapter...
I'm sorry this is all. But I'll be offline most of tomorrow, and on Wednsday I have a couple more chapters to catch up with...


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Feb 4 2013, 3:32pm

Post #17 of 18 (353 views)
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Very welcome answers: I don't think "late" is a problem! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
Feel free to meddle in the affairs of noWizardMe by agreeing or disagreeing (politely...) with my posts! I may not be subtle, but at least I'm usually slow to anger...


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 7:37pm

Post #18 of 18 (472 views)
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Secretly an Ent? [In reply to] Can't Post

Possibly Sador is really an Ent, and being hasty is not in his nature. (We'll keep an eye out in the Northfarthing, in case he goes hiking there.)

More seriously, I always enjoy your commentary, Sador.

 
 

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