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Radagast's Lead Bunny
Rivendell
Jan 14 2013, 9:50am
Post #1 of 21
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Bats, BOFA and the Necromancer
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According to a recent interview of Armitage, BOFA will feature a massive fight between the eagles and the bats.
Now when Radagast meets the Necromancer a group of bats appears and chase the wizard, so it seems that those bats are Necromancer's minions...
Do you think the presence of a lot of bats in the BOFA imply that the Necromancer will take part to the battle too ?
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 14 2013, 10:02am
Post #2 of 21
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No, I don't think it indicates that the Necromacer will appear at the battle
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After all, they appear in the battle in the book without him being there. And from Empire magazine, it was stated:
The Gundabad orcs march under the dark cover of a cloud of bats
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Vangalad
Lorien
Jan 14 2013, 10:12am
Post #3 of 21
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I can't see any motives for him to do so.
By the time of the battle Smaug will be destroyed, so the necromancer will have no interest in joining himself such a fight and even risk his already vulnerable form.
But, considering the Dol Guldur-Bolg-Azog potential connected storylines, it wouldn't be a surprise to see the necromancer sending some forces-like bats-to reinforce the big army of Mount Gundabad.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
(This post was edited by Vangalad on Jan 14 2013, 10:18am)
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Calenheniel
Bree
Jan 14 2013, 10:57am
Post #4 of 21
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I don't remember that from Empire, but
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that sounds freaking amazing. 
'I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Eowyn, Eowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 14 2013, 11:03am
Post #5 of 21
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Link
And there's a link to the podcast in the first post. 
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Calenheniel
Bree
Jan 14 2013, 11:06am
Post #6 of 21
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'I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Eowyn, Eowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow.
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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 14 2013, 11:45am
Post #7 of 21
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After all, they appear in the battle in the book without him being there. And from Empire magazine, it was stated:
But I eat my hat if the Necromancer is not at least partially responsible for the massing of the orc army for the Bo5A and play a pivotal role in the climax of the trilogy. Dark Lord Sauron as the quickly disposed secondary villain? Playing second fiddle to a mere orc chieftain? I don't think so. And I really wouldn't be surprised if he did provide the bats for them. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if he added in a couple of Thuringwethil-style vampires as a bonus so that the Eagles have something to fight against on their own ground.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 14 2013, 11:48am
Post #8 of 21
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It's no longer the Goblins from the Misty Mountains out for revenge on the death of the Great Goblin. The army will most definitely consist of Gundabad Orcs, and Orcs from Dol Guldur.
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 14 2013, 1:34pm
Post #9 of 21
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The Dues Ex Machinas are getting an expanded role in the film by having them battle an army of bats. Wonderful. This should only increase the "Why didn't they carry the Ring to Mordor?" and "Why didn't Gandalf at least ask them to help?" questions I have to hear x500.
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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 14 2013, 2:06pm
Post #10 of 21
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The bats were there in the book.
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The Dues Ex Machinas are getting an expanded role in the film by having them battle an army of bats. Wonderful. This should only increase the "Why didn't they carry the Ring to Mordor?" and "Why didn't Gandalf at least ask them to help?" questions I have to hear x500.
How is that expansion? And there are plenty of reasons why the Eagles wouldn't touch the Ring, much less fly it to Mordor. The books give one that is as straightforward and pragmatic as it gets: people are heavy. Eagles are not machines. They can't carry even hobbits for hundreds of thousands of miles.
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 14 2013, 2:17pm
Post #11 of 21
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There were not so many as to blot out the sun
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Which is what they're apparently going for. It's going to be ridiculous in a bad way, too many video game effects.
As for the Eagles, you are obviously not experienced with confronting this problem. That is one of the weakest answers, the Eagles already show in The Hobbit that they can carry the Company many miles, which would be a big help. They can also stop and take breaks if they get tired. At the very least, they could have carried the company to just outside Mordor.
There are other, better ways of shooting down that problem, but it's not easy and will never convince everyone. The best answer is to not have the Eagles be the focus of scenes since they are deus ex machinas, and let the audience forget them as a solution to problems. I'm not arguing that the Eagles and bats shouldn't be there, because they are, but we don't need a ridiculous eagle-bat battle scene showing them off. We've got plenty of characters on the ground that need more screen time than the CGI animals.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 14 2013, 2:22pm
Post #12 of 21
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It depends how one envisions the battle.
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The BO5A has always interested and excited me more than any other battle during the War of the Ring. I'm happy for their to be a massive sky battle, alongside the action on the ground. I want it as layered as possible. I don't care how ridiculous or video game-y it looks. 
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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 14 2013, 2:28pm
Post #13 of 21
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When was the last time that you read The Hobbit?
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Which is what they're apparently going for. It's going to be ridiculous in a bad way, too many video game effects.
I can quote it word for word right here:
Still more suddenly a darkness came on with dreadful swiftness! A black cloud hurried over the sky. Winter thunder on a wild wind rolled roaring up and rumbled in the Mountain, and lightning lit its peak. And beneat the thunder another blackness could be seen whirling forward; but it did not come with the wind, it came from the North, like a vast cloud of birds, so dense that no light could be seen between their wings.
What did you say about not being dense enough, again?
As for the Eagles, you are obviously not experienced with confronting this problem. That is one of the weakest answers, the Eagles already show in The Hobbit that they can carry the Company many miles, which would be a big help. They can also stop and take breaks if they get tired. At the very least, they could have carried the company to just outside Mordor.
Trust me, I have debated on this matter for 15 years. I know every argument and counterargument. I consider the basic pragmatic approach to be the best, even though there are many metaphysical ones concerning the Ring. You don't understand the logistics of large beasts of burden, especially ones that would be carnivorous and physically unsuitable for carrying people like the Eagles. Arranging an eagle-caravan would be a nightmare where more time would be spent camping than flying and with an enemy who keeps close tabs on anything out of the ordinary, would stand out like a sore thumb.
And you're out of luck since those deus ex machinas are going to be used, whether you like it or not. Better for them to actually have something to do than just be there for the appearance's sake. Nothing is worse storytelling than introducing characters or creatures purely for decoration .
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2013, 2:56pm
Post #14 of 21
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I hope so, but one concern: Bo5A possible similarlity to Narnia LWW (Extended)
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From what I've seen, El Necro is being set up as a big baddy throughout all three movies. It wouldn't be hard to draw a connection to him by letting the Orc's air-cavalry of Bats come from Dol Goldur.
One concern though: in the Extended DVD version of Narnia: Lion The Witch etc, (anybody here see it, as I have?) there was an added section of the final battle featuring Gryphons versus Vampire Bats in the sky (IIRC).
So, an Eagles v. Bats sky battle had better look different and better. (Shouldn't be hard---I thought the CGI for Narnia's Vampire Bats looked rather hokey.)
A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Plurmo
Rohan
Jan 14 2013, 3:54pm
Post #15 of 21
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Hundreds of thousands of miles? Logistics of large beasts of burden? Those arguments would make sense coming from the mouth of a PETA activist from Harad trying to keep the Mūmakil out of the endangered species list. Pity, they didn't succeed. Neither will you if you go for the "trust me I've been on this far longer than thou" kind of argument.
PS: read again the White Rider chapter with more care before stating with certainty that the apparition on the borders of Fangorn is Saruman. As someone who "knows every argument and counterargument" you should detect a well constructed riddle when you see one. There, besides other hints, it is implicitly stated that you should not trust Gandalf's words on that matter (or that you must trust them literally, if you prefer). Your conviction that Saruman is the apparition mirrors the three hunters' conviction that Gandalf is dead. It is a riddle with a purpose.
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Mahtion
Rivendell
Jan 14 2013, 4:25pm
Post #16 of 21
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The eagles may represent deus ex machina but that is the original source material. Tolkien used the eagles with Thorondor in the 1st Age and Gwaihir in the Third. Considering that the eagles are representatives of Manwe, they are literally acts or devices of gods. It is divine intervention and that is the point. The eagles could not have dropped the One ring in Orodruin or carried the Fellowship no more than Orome and Ulmo came and did it themselves. The task and burden of vanquishing Sauron lay on mortals.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 14 2013, 4:50pm
Post #17 of 21
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Of Sauron's capabilities for controlling things. He was always a master of shadows, and the bats represent that. It might be symbolic of his growing power, and it almost makes sense he might be able to control a horde of bats where he can't yet really control armies of orcs and other creatures DIRECTLY. I don't see that the Necromancer will be there. I just don't. They took out the Sauron fight with Aragorn, they'd be violating their own canon with an actual appearance by the Necromancer. Even if he's wispy shadowy whatever.
As for the bats vs. eagles: There's not going to be anything subtle about this because subtle is not going to sell tickets.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 14 2013, 4:56pm
Post #18 of 21
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J.R.R. Tolkien: "I knew I had written a story of worth in 'The Hobbit' when..."
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"...reading it (after it was old enough to be detached from me) I had suddenly in a fairly strong measure the 'eucatastrophic' emotion at Bilbo's exclamation: 'The Eagles! The Eagles are coming!'" That's from one of Tolkien's letters.
However, a film that is faithful to the book will not show the Eagles fighting with the bats (or with anyone else, apart perhaps from the briefest of flashbacks), since Tolkien deliberately chooses to elide the action after Bilbo spies the eagles, and tells the rest curtly after the fact.
So they too had gathered in great numbers, under the great Eagle of the Misty Mountains; and at length smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time. They it was who dislodged the goblins from the mountain-slopes, casting them over precipices, or driving them down shrieking and bewildered among their foes. It was not long before they had freed the Lonely Mountain, and elves and men on either side of the valley could come at last to the help of the battle below.
And that's it.
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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 14 2013, 5:10pm
Post #19 of 21
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Because issues given by the books should be taken into account?
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Hundreds of thousands of miles? Logistics of large beasts of burden?
My quote was "hundreds or thousands of miles. Gwahir outright states to Gandalf that he can't carry him to the ends of the earth, so the books acknowledge the physical limits that the eagles have to contend with. In fact they never carry anyone except Gandalf right after his resurrection (at which point he was still light as a feather) further than tens of miles at a time. The LotR-trilogy takes its logistics seriously. Why you drag PETA into the discussion, I have no idea.
PS: read again the White Rider chapter with more care before stating with certainty that the apparition on the borders of Fangorn is Saruman. As someone who "knows every argument and counterargument" you should detect a well constructed riddle when you see one.
Ho hum. You refer to the horses fleeing to Shadowfax, perhaps? Gandalf was in the vicinity, but it wasn't he who originally spooked them. As I recall Gandalf outright declares how Saruman was there but without Aragorn's skills as a tracker had no means of finding out what happened to the hobbits. Since there were no tracks of the old man that Aragorn could have detected, it couldn't have been a material person. Reading too much into things is just as bad as ignoring subtle cues.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 15 2013, 12:34am
Post #20 of 21
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Not entirely on Mortals (for Elves are also tasked and effected), but you are essentially right.
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Yet, the Valar sent all the help they were going to send in the form of their lesser Kin-Spirits, who came as The Five Wizards. And in the end, that help proved entirely adequate for the task. The eagles may represent deus ex machina but that is the original source material. Tolkien used the eagles with Thorondor in the 1st Age and Gwaihir in the Third. Considering that the eagles are representatives of Manwe, they are literally acts or devices of gods. It is divine intervention and that is the point. The eagles could not have dropped the One ring in Orodruin or carried the Fellowship no more than Orome and Ulmo came and did it themselves. The task and burden of vanquishing Sauron lay on mortals.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Me
The Shire
Jan 16 2013, 7:45pm
Post #21 of 21
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One of the forms of Sauron is a giant bat.
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If he got involved with the battle of the five armies, It would be very possible that we will see his servants, ( which are very much likened to himself ). The 'Necromancer' is undoubtedly 'Sauron' himself, right?
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