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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 6:01pm

Post #26 of 47 (153 views)
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That is exactly what happened. You [In reply to] Can't Post

will have to ignore the gist of the counter statement, as it has everything to do with personal prefference, it seems, not cannon or continuity.

In Reply To
i thought they won the battle and Dain ventured into Moria and saw the balrog than told his people not to enter?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 6:09pm

Post #27 of 47 (148 views)
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WhAAAAAAAA? If they retook Moria. .. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

well then why the hell are they living in The Blue Mountains??????? Begging your pardon, but Balin says in the film that Thorin has done well by their people, making a good home for them in The Blue Mountains. Ered Luin wasn't anywhere near Moria when last I checked. And if they re-entered Moria. . . why didn't they look around, check to see if a certain big, pale uber-orc was sitting in a corner nursing injuries, and finish his big, bad ass off? Why are they even concerned about Erebor, other than as a source of treasure and a very dangerous, unlikely vengeance, if they have reclaimed the original Ancient Fatherland and seat of Durin??? Thrain I founded Erebor when the Balrog drove his folk into exile (and more than a few Elves of Lothlorien besides, through his sheer presence) from Khazad-Dum. Erebor was a second home, a new realm in exile. Khazad-Dum, which the Balrog transformed into Moria, as the Elves renamed it, was the true Homeland of Durin's Folk and Heirs.


That said, I think your postulate on how the film team could answer all the continuity questions works for me, though that would still require them at least alluding to the Demon.

In Reply To
Again, I mixed the book and the movie.
The dwarves HAVE retaken Moria after the victory at the East Gate.
The movie doesn't tell us anything about the Balrog so I'll go with the easy assumption that there are dwarves now in Moria, after Azanulbizar and up to the The Hobbit and FOTR.
We may see at the end of TABA Balin saying he will rejoin his comrades who are in Moria.
I guess the writers just need to establish that there WAS a demon in Moria A LONG TIME AGO, forgotten in memory, who drove the dwarves out of Moria but now went back to sleep; a demon who would wake up only if an equivalent power would manifest near him and threaten him (as was the Power of the dwarves digging too deep (due to (one of) the Seven Rings?), or Gandalf's presence coupled with the Ring of Power (let's add Narya too...)
I know this is a little less powerful than Tolkien's vision, but it would solve a lot of inconsistencies.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 12 2013, 7:34pm

Post #28 of 47 (137 views)
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that poster had my head spinning there for a sec [In reply to] Can't Post

i was thinking the same thing, than why did they go the Blue Mountains. i think it would be cool if they showed a flashback of Gandalf venturing into Moria to find Thráin.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 8:11pm

Post #29 of 47 (130 views)
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Lol. Yeah. All of our perspectives on how the films should unfold/ are unfolding,are at least somewhat [In reply to] Can't Post

coloured by our own interests, prefferences etc. etc.. and the resulting arguments are sometimes based on the facts of the novel and/or existing films etc. (unfortunately, book to film based "facts" can sometimes be legitimately quite conflicting), or are at least well supported by them. . . and sometimes not so much Unimpressed Unsure. But, you know. . . it is what it is. lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm

Post #30 of 47 (121 views)
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You would still be mistaken -- even further in the film continuity. [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, you can quit with the graituous synonyms. Balrog is a Balrog. In the films Gimli expresses no awareness of an evil presence in Moria. Implicitly in the film continuity this is ancient history that only wizards know about. The best you can hope for is Gandalf appearing concerned in the epilogue if Balin suggests retaking Moria and suggesting him to give up his plans, to no avail.

You can't repeat often enough: what is introduced can't be left unused. There is no use for the Balrog, therefore there is no purpose for introducing him.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 9:28pm

Post #31 of 47 (122 views)
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Belligerent condecension aside, [In reply to] Can't Post

A Balrog is indeed a Balrog, though some are doubtless less aware of what that entails than are others. . . and some merely feign ignorance when it suits them. But no matter. Gimli isn't the sole issue here, is he? The audience is. The Audience has been informed that there is A Demon in Moria, and The Audience has been informed that The Wizards at least are very well aware of his presence, and through them (and of course the fact that he is fully revealed later in Fellowship) The Audience knows of his presence IN Moria. And, if Moria is to be raised in The Hobbit in anything beyond the most fleeting of reffernces (and what we have gotten so far already exceeds anything that could be considered fleeting), then there are questions that are raised with it which require some answering for seamless continuity's sake.

Also there is the other matter. . . if Gandalf knows of The Balrog and is worried about potential allegiances The Necromancer might forge to trouble Elves and Men, a former Demon Thane of Melkor (Tolkien's synonyms, dear, not mine) would be high up on his list of concerns if he knew of it. . . which in the films he does.

As to use. . . the use is continuity, and lots of other less useful and far less relevant things have already been used in this movie, chiefly for that purpose. His use, in brief, would also be much more consistent with the actual story than, say, Azog, whose actual fate before the East Gate of Moria goes rather differently than the film suggests. In any event he IS used. This isn't really a singular, isolated movie anymore. That ship sailed long ago. It isn't really even a trilogy. It is a Sextet with the front end having come late and needing to be rehauled back to the beginning. The Balrog is used in the fourth act of this six act play. But to use him without ever introducing him, even when you have explicitly introduced his lair, would be most untidy indeed.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 12 2013, 9:31pm)


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:09am

Post #32 of 47 (95 views)
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I've seen AUJ only once. Did they say that in the movie? (NT) [In reply to] Can't Post

 

http://energyfromthorium.com/


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:34am

Post #33 of 47 (98 views)
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Ah, Ok, then the question remains, why they did not establish their new home in Moria? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know, you would say because of the Balrog, but they just did not say anything about him.
My only problem is that the Balrog can't produce that light we see from the gate, hence all the inconsistences I've already said.
I guess the only way to fix this situation is to have another flashback and have the dwarves walk deep into Moria just after the battle of Azanulbizar and then, deep inside they should experience what Tolkien imagined just right at the East Gate.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:38am

Post #34 of 47 (92 views)
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What you said is in the book, not the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

We have to base on what we have from the movie.
I guess we have to assume the orcs withdrew inside Moria... but what kind of victory Balin is talking about is that?

http://energyfromthorium.com/


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2013, 2:38am

Post #35 of 47 (102 views)
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yes it could [In reply to] Can't Post

did u notice all the light the balrog produced when the fellowship was running from it on the stairs to the bridge of khazad-dum?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:48am

Post #36 of 47 (90 views)
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Then why is he there doing nothing? [In reply to] Can't Post

He sure can come out, otherwise Gandalf wouldn't have sacrificed himself to stop him if there had been some strange magical barrier.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 13 2013, 8:14am

Post #37 of 47 (100 views)
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That wouldn't have to be inconsistent. [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand your meaning, but it could be explained by unfounded hope (and we do not know if or how Thror's Ring may fit into these adaptations). Yet, as has been said, to the dwarves, a distant Legend of a Dark Power, even one perhaps glimpsed by a few dwarves at Azanulbizar, might seem no more menacing or impossible to overcome than a great Dragon. . . and, beyond hope, a great Dragon will have been overcome by the end of these films. Maybe (and maybe, unanswered as it was, this was partly the case in backstory of the novels as well), Balin took the unexpected, and all but impossible beyond hope defeat of Smaug as a sign that the fortunes of Durin's Folk had changed at last, and that Moria could be hoped for. It is also certainly feasible that Balin did not personally see The Balrog, and did not riddle out the demon glow (if it was that) emenating from the gate. Maybe it is revealed to The Audience that it was The Balrog, and Gandalf (from the information gathered) suspects it was such, but is unable to convince Balin. etc.

In Reply To
I know, you would say because of the Balrog, but they just did not say anything about him.
My only problem is that the Balrog can't produce that light we see from the gate, hence all the inconsistences I've already said.
I guess the only way to fix this situation is to have another flashback and have the dwarves walk deep into Moria just after the battle of Azanulbizar and then, deep inside they should experience what Tolkien imagined just right at the East Gate.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 13 2013, 8:29am

Post #38 of 47 (98 views)
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I had thought about that. . . but I think one has to consider The Balrog further. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrogs were, in many ways, akin to Melkor The Morgoth. . . and after he was humbled he NEVER came forth again into open war. Now, to be fair, the Balrogs entire history suggests that they were both far more assured (perhaps excessively so) in their near unchallengable might in direct combat, and they seem never to have shyed away from any challenge in which the odds were not obviously against them. . . but that does not mean that a Balrog would come out to do battle on behalf of an army of orcs/goblins. He was not the orcs Champion, like Azog or Bolg, nor was he their Muscle, like The Cave Troll. Whatever relationship he might have had with them would have been most akin to Terrifying lesser god amongst fearful wretches (like Morgoth himself, the Balrogs were said to be Proud, and in that pride we may infer contemptous). Gandalf said that Sauron led in the manner that Denethor suggested (and also abided by). . . that he would not come forth onto the field save either to gloat in victory, or when all else seemed lost and only his power at bay could turn the tide. Both his master and his servants behaved in a similar manner. Saruman behaved in this manner, and it would come as no surprise to see the Balrog behave in his manner.

From all that can be inferred from the written account, The Balrog was certainly aware of the battle of Azanulbizar, and he was aware of its outcome He was not willing to stand forth to try and save the orcs (and if he was as contemptuous of weakness as his master Melkor and his former co-captain Sauron, he likely was of the notion that if they couldn't defeat the dwarves without him stepping forth they didn't deserve to survive), but when it came to the dwarves attempting to enter his lair. . . he came forth enough to let them know it wasn't going to go down that way. And he didn't have to do anymore. Whether the orcs survived or perished, he knew that The Dwarves were no more able to overthrow his might than they had been when their numbers and force of arms had been far greater, and when their greatest King and Ancestor was walking as their reincarnated lord.

And he likely would have known that Sauron would eventually just send more fodder anyway. In his wickedness, it may even have amused him to see his fellow Maiar inconvieninced, while not doing any real or lasting harm to his evil agenda. Beyond all that. . . The Balrog was a Demon older than the world and involved in it's making. . . if those who followed Gandalf "knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose," the Balrog's may be equally hard to fathom. Who has been privy to the dark counsels of Morgoth? Unsure

In Reply To
He sure can come out, otherwise Gandalf wouldn't have sacrificed himself to stop him if there had been some strange magical barrier.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 13 2013, 8:36am)


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 13 2013, 2:58pm

Post #39 of 47 (70 views)
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Ok, so you have made up your own movie about the Balrog, what about the casual viewers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Regular people would ask themselves why the heck the Balrog didn't just join the battle against an enemy of Sauron (and dwarves are true enemies of Sauron, otherwise he wouldn't have given them the Rings).

You have given a lot of reasons why he didn't join the battle, but what about basing only on what we know of him from the movies? You gave him too many characteristics. We know he is pure evil, terror incarnated, having him making all those reasonings about the orcs not being worthy of his help is a bit forced.

Also, we know he lives by himself, away from the orcs (in fact they run away when he shows up in FOTR). Wouldn't it be weired to have him sitting at the East Gate while the orcs runs in and out during the battle?

I thought about another good introduction to him. When Azog dies at the BO5A (yes?), he would wisper to Balin something like "you will never get your precious Moria back, you know what's down there, in the deeps... shadow and flame". First Balin get scared to death, then gives the final blow to Azog.
Wouldn't that be awesome?
Smile

But, please, no Balrog at the East Gate.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2013, 6:50pm

Post #40 of 47 (62 views)
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it boils down to speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

we don't know because PJ never showed the balrog there but we did see giant flames at the east gate...i think PJ was tipping his hat to what happens when we see Moria again in FOTR.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2013, 6:53pm

Post #41 of 47 (58 views)
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it is a victory nevertheless [In reply to] Can't Post

thats like saying it was not a victory that the allies in WW1 were able to push the German forces back into Germany because they were still inside Germany...yes but the allies still pushed them back and they loss ground and history tells us the allies won WW1.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 13 2013, 9:22pm

Post #42 of 47 (52 views)
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Whoa there. [In reply to] Can't Post

no need for smart assery, friend Tongue. You asked me why he might have abstained from the battle, and I gave you a reasonable answer. I wasn't even focusing just on the movies at that point, as I thought your question was a more generic one, and could be asked as much of the appendices as of the movie, if indeed the Fiery Glow is meant to signify the presence of Durin's Bane. So I just gave you an answer, and one that seems highly likely.

But even in the films, what is clear is that he isn't the orcs muscle. They can't keep him on a leash and bring him in to do heavy lifting and fighting as they do with the cave troll. They are even more terrified of him in the movies than in the book (there they are daunted and subdued, but they do not flee, and the relationship seems more akin to that of The Nazgul Lord when he is present amongst his living servants). But his motivations are unclear in the film. Him being present but not aiding the orcs would simply leave his motivations still unclear. . . but his menace, and the reason for the dwarves failing would be clear enough. We don't need a faxed list of The Balrogs motivations and full intentions. He is a demon from before the world. We might not fully understand his motives anyway. lol

It is not made clearwhat the living arrangements were. I don't think it is so much that he lived in seperate quarters, as that they got the hell out of the way whenever and wherever he came, unless commanded/compelled to do otherwise. Yet what remains clear is that he tolerates them. He is obviously not bent on their destruction (as he was bent on the destruction and ruin of The Dwarves), for if he were they would all be dead or fled.

As I said, the Weapons and Warfare official companion to the LOTR movies states that the filmaker's take was that the orcs essentially worsipped the Balrog in their isolated Moria colonies, and that it was a shamanistic and fear filled worship. Again, that is their take not so much mine, but that perspective could inform any decisions the make regarding Moria and its denizens in these films.

But Azog and his uber orcs seem less chicken hearted than some of the smaller Moria Orcs/goblins from Fellowship. Maybe they are better able to tolerate, albiet fearfully and worshipfully, the Balrog's presence than their lesser kindred.

I do kinda like your Balin/Azog scenario. But, while being present (The Balrog) at the East Gate without participating MIGHT raise questions (and for all we know such questions could be answered), it would not create the same continuity problem that featuring Moria with no acknowledgement of The Balrog does. I am not particularly hung up on HOW they allude to him, whether at The Gate, or in another manner more consistent with your suggestions. I just think it would be better if they covered their behinds in the continiuity and consistency department, and at least lay the foundations for his massive presence in Fellowship here, so that he doesn't seem like something pulled out of someone's bum for no other reason than providing a boss fight in Moria. Failure to do that not only diminishes the history and these players in it, but it makes the storyline look sloppy and haphazard.

In Reply To
Regular people would ask themselves why the heck the Balrog didn't just join the battle against an enemy of Sauron (and dwarves are true enemies of Sauron, otherwise he wouldn't have given them the Rings).

You have given a lot of reasons why he didn't join the battle, but what about basing only on what we know of him from the movies? You gave him too many characteristics. We know he is pure evil, terror incarnated, having him making all those reasonings about the orcs not being worthy of his help is a bit forced.

Also, we know he lives by himself, away from the orcs (in fact they run away when he shows up in FOTR). Wouldn't it be weired to have him sitting at the East Gate while the orcs runs in and out during the battle?

I thought about another good introduction to him. When Azog dies at the BO5A (yes?), he would wisper to Balin something like "you will never get your precious Moria back, you know what's down there, in the deeps... shadow and flame". First Balin get scared to death, then gives the final blow to Azog.
Wouldn't that be awesome?
Smile

But, please, no Balrog at the East Gate.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 12:46am

Post #43 of 47 (45 views)
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Again, you have to excuse my poor English... [In reply to] Can't Post

I might have given you some strange impressions... don't bother too much reasoning on the feeling of my posts
Smile

http://energyfromthorium.com/


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 12:59am

Post #44 of 47 (45 views)
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Yes, but if there's a Balrog there... [In reply to] Can't Post

it needs a thorough (and time consuming) explanation, which I highly doubt we could get.
Explaining in detal his behavior I think it would weaken both his character and his appearance in FOTR.
But I might be totally wrong.
Now what I really want is just a hint of him, by a dying Azog, a final taunt at the dwarves that they'll never reclaim their ancestors' realm.
I think that those flames at the East Gate will end up being the Palantir of Denethor in ROTK.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 14 2013, 2:19am

Post #45 of 47 (42 views)
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But they don't really need to go into deep explanation. Sometimes a little can still convey a lot. [In reply to] Can't Post

Like the look Thorin gives to a increasingly treasure obsessed Thror. We don't KNOW exactly what Thorin is thinking. . . but we get it.

I think that if the Moria scene is further expanded upon later, perhaps Dain and several other dwarves going up to the gate, maybe even entering, still fierce and grim (perhaps we hear big, bad ass Dain say something to Dwalin along the lines of, "I say we should not leave this place without the head of that filthy orc, Azog, even if we do not remain in Moria!"), go into the gate, and from the inner stairs they catch a glimpse. . . we see their faces overcome with horror, get perhaps a shrouded, fleeting look at the face of The Demon, very much like what we get in Saruman's book, except realized rather than an illustration, and they get the hell out of there, and maybe don't even speak of it. One can imagine Thorin and Balin pushing Dwalin to speak. "What is the matter, brother! (cousin for Thorin)." And Dwalin, fierce as we know him to be, just shaking his head. . "we cannot enter Moria, now. . . we cannot. . " But no explanation, and they cannot get an explanation out of him or Dain, and they refuse to speak of it thereafter, as people sometimes do regarding a traumatic event. That level of Trauma in such fierce dwarves would testify to the Terror of The Demon more than just about anything else.

And that would have a lot of power and not need much further explanation. The dwarves looked into Moria and found that there was something in there far more dreadful than any orc (super sized, pale, bald, big assed, mace wielding or otherwise). And it didn't come to the aid of the orcs, because presumably it didn't really give a damn about them.. . but it/he wasn't going to let the Dwarves go home again. And that is enough. We don't need to know the innermost workings of his thoughts. It maybe that The Council may have mention of the threat posed if Sauron starts gathering together the worst of Middle-Earth's remaining evils. But, "why didn't the Demon help the orcs?" is a fair and good question, right alongside, "who told Gandalf he should go back?". . . but, while they make for good conversation and speculation, they don't break inner continuity, nor do any major revising to the history.

In Reply To
it needs a thorough (and time consuming) explanation, which I highly doubt we could get.
Explaining in detal his behavior I think it would weaken both his character and his appearance in FOTR.
But I might be totally wrong.
Now what I really want is just a hint of him, by a dying Azog, a final taunt at the dwarves that they'll never reclaim their ancestors' realm.
I think that those flames at the East Gate will end up being the Palantir of Denethor in ROTK.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 14 2013, 5:23pm

Post #46 of 47 (28 views)
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Again, I think, movie wise, they have to enter deep into Moria. [In reply to] Can't Post

Then, chasing the orcs deep into Moria, they get a glimpse of the Balrog... but I just can't imagine that gate. Again, movie wise.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 14 2013, 10:55pm

Post #47 of 47 (72 views)
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I don't have a huge problem with that idea, as long as they give some explanation [In reply to] Can't Post

and allusion to his presence, and don't just make the sloppy mistake of having Moria here with no mention of him, and then having him pop up out of the black with a hasty "by the way, he was always here and he was still here the last time, but you just missed him. . . I guess you blinked!" I raise the East Gate though, in part because in the book he IS there, but also because there is definitely an unexplained and mighty glow inside that gate through it's entire depiction in the movie, and it is very reminiscent of the glow the Fellowship sees before when they first become fully aware of him, as a group, on the far side of The Dwarrowdelf. Which doesn't mean he was standing right at the gate. In the films, the glow of his Demon fires seems to cast light a long way off from his actual person, when he wants it to.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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