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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Is this a subtle way of explaining the Ringwraith theme in the film?"
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Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 3:07pm

Post #26 of 47 (242 views)
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You have to remember [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hearing the Nazgul theme and the Gondor Reborn cue were jarring and obvious attempts to garner goodwill toward TH by fostering nostalgia for LotR. If PJ wanted to tie Azog into the minions of the Necromancer, who could have done so with, say, the Necromancer/evil motif we hear throughout the film anyway? Or another version of the Azog motif blended with that of Mordor? It just reeked of cut-and-paste. It's like if they used the Gondor theme for Thorin because both he and Aragorn were Kings, without an other context...oh, wait a minute.


This is just your assumption of the decisions that went into including this music, but you're saying it as if it's a fact.

The fact is, none of us knows for sure (including me, though we all have strong feelings), or will know unless it's spoken to on the home video release.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-

(This post was edited by Ave Moria on Jan 11 2013, 3:08pm)


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 3:30pm

Post #27 of 47 (239 views)
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Recycling [In reply to] Can't Post

Not saying anything bad about anybody, but something is familiar about this clip, between 4:55-5:05.

http://youtu.be/88ft_enkr9c

I checked on IMDB, and Howard is not involved with the music from The Natural. I wonder if he heard that phrase and liked it enough to incorporate it into his own music.



I am SMAUG! I kill when I wish! I am strong, strong, STRONG!
My armor is like tenfold shields! My teeth like swords! My claws, spears!
The shock of my tail, a thunderbolt! My wings, a hurricane! And my breath, death!


elevorn
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 4:42pm

Post #28 of 47 (230 views)
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nothing new for Shore [In reply to] Can't Post

I love his work, but he also uses the Hymn "This is My Father's World" for one of his themes for Frodo.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 5:14pm

Post #29 of 47 (214 views)
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correction: he doesn't 'use the hymn', his music sounds similar to the hymn [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote from Doug Adams:
Howard certainly knows the classical repertoire, but really his only intentional LOTR homage—as indirect as it may be—is in the trilogy's Wagnerian finale. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't some close musical neighbors here and there (and, by all means, check out Magpie's site if you care to discover more), but these are all accidental and, generally, pretty fleeting. Believe it or not, it really was Tolkien's good old opus that fueled Howard's imagination through this project. He had a dog-eared, well-worn copy of the book tucked under his arm nearly every time I saw him during the composing process. I half expected to see it sitting on the podium when I arrived at the recording sessions… though I have no doubt it was at least sitting back at the hotel.


The portion of my site he mentions can be accessed by following the link in my footer, entering the site, and finding a link for 'SIMILARITIES TO OTHER MUSIC'.

I like to take people at their word unless I have a strong and compelling reason not to trust them. I have no reason to distrust either Shore or Adams. These similarities were not intentional and were not a case of 'ripping' off another piece of music.


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elevorn
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 5:42pm

Post #30 of 47 (202 views)
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oh I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I never meant to imply that he stole or ripped anything off. That's actually one of my favorite melodies in the hymnal, and I think the words of it are quite fiting for the character and for Tolkien as and author. I'm a classically trained musician and have been involved in music my whole life so I can usually pick up on themes and hints from other sources.
The closeness of the music from the movie the Natural, and the hints of the hymnal throughout the score add to my experience. His use of the melody may have been unintentional, but they are definitely there. Its a common thing in 21st century music, the same thing happens in many compositions and movies scores.

For another example of this you can listen to the score to Star Trek 6 The Undiscovered Country, if you don't hear Holst in there then you're deaf lol.

Your site is quite wonderful and very well researched, and again please don't think I was accusing Howard of ripping someone off, I love the score, and I love a lot of his other works as well. He is becoming quite on par with John Williams in my opinion.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com

(This post was edited by elevorn on Jan 11 2013, 5:42pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 6:08pm

Post #31 of 47 (204 views)
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I highly doubt if inclusion of this music was indeed to trigger LotR nostalgia, it would be confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

by anyone on the home video release. Doug Adams has already explained it away as thematic linking, which IMO, is a way of working around explaining why parts of the original score was rejected. It's not a matter of just their inserting familiar material, it's a matter of their recording original cues (as heard on the score), then replacing them with reused/rerecorded cues from LotR.

Actually, I did prefer the music of the Eagles headed to the carrock over the piece on the score as the more subdued version was more appropriate to the scene, (and also preferred the cues when Bilbo/Fili/Kili/Dwalin jumped forth to defend Thorin), so it does seem (IMO) that the replaced music which was original worked, and that which was re-appropriated didn't.

BTW, on a sidenote: I don't think he heard most of the brilliant "Radagast the Brown" either; such a great track that was, with the countenance between the choir, the fiddle, and the frenetic "spider" rhythms.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 6:42pm

Post #32 of 47 (199 views)
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There was a method to the film maker's Nazgul theme "madness" [In reply to] Can't Post

Estel78 wrote: Why was the Nazgul / Mordor theme needed in the Thorin / Azog confrontation?

Personally, I thought that was a brilliant choice. My initial reaction to the Nazgul theme was, 'what the heck is that doing here?' I thought the theme music surrounding the Thorin vs. Azog confrontation should be more heroic.

But on subsequent viewings, I realized I couldn't have been more wrong. The Nazgul theme is one of Shore's most sinister pieces. So why make it the theme of the Thorin-Azog confrontation? Because that confrontation IS evil--it's not about heroism in any way,shape, or form--it's about vengence--Thorin's against Azog and Azog's against Thorin. A 'good' Thorin would have worried about the safety of his Company first and foremost. But Thorin was so obsessed with gaining revenge against Azog that nothing else mattered. In addition to the theme music, you'll notice in the brief shot of Gandalf that he has a look of disappointment on his face.

IMHO, what the film makers are saying to the audience is, like Thror's obsession with his gold, vengence is A SICKNESS--and where there is sickness, bad things happen. (As we will vividly see later on in the story.) Ironically, this climax played out similar to what we'll see in the future with Bilbo stepping in.




(This post was edited by Black Breathalizer on Jan 11 2013, 6:45pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 6:44pm

Post #33 of 47 (172 views)
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addressing similarities... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is something I wish I had better musical training to address.

I suspect that certain chords, certain modes, certain keys and changes in keys, certain rhythms, etc... can evoke somewhat predictable responses. I think trying to tap into these predictable prompts probably explains a lot of similar sounding music.

But I don't have the understanding or language to express it so I just enjoy noting the similarities.

I just like to make sure anyone reading this thread is clear about what Shore has said on this matter (and, in many cases, Adams all but speaks for Shore).


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elevorn
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 6:53pm

Post #34 of 47 (167 views)
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I'm with you [In reply to] Can't Post

When writing music, it comes from your head, and many times that can be like taking things out of a jar you have put loads and loads of things into. When you reach back into the jar you are bound to get those things you have placed inside whether you mean to or not. So when I hear these similar themes and melodies thats what I think of. I would love to expound more on why I think the Hymn theme that goes with Frodo works so well, but thise thread was about the theme with the wargs and all the evil stuff.

I read Doug's article on his site that goes with these tweets, great stuff. Actually pulled up the piano on my Ipad and played through the progression and chords to remind myself of the moment in the movie. People seem so caught up in saying that music is a rehash, it really isn't. The themes resonate throughout other themes. The Misty Mountains theme is soft at first but is then far more grandious and boisterous as the brass sections guides us through the Mountains on the journey. If you listen to those themes you can hear the themse from LOTR almost echoed in the rhythm of that section of music and the timbre as well. Likewise the themes of evil are always there. They have the same roots and thus the score should reflect that. I loved the score in the movie, and as soon as I am able will be buying it on iTunes.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 6:54pm

Post #35 of 47 (243 views)
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Doug Adams podcast [In reply to] Can't Post

(haven't had a chance to listen yet)

link for mp3 at:
http://www.tracksounds.com/.../soundcast/index.htm


Episode #54 - The Hobbit: A Game of Themes

Author Doug Adams returns to the SoundCast to talk about Howard Shore's score for part one of THE HOBBIT trilogy.  Find out which Tracksounds staffer has yet to see the film, how the presentation format of the film effected our experience, how the score caused some headscratching, and how this whole thing is just a huge "game of themes."


Episode Highlights

00:00 Blunt the Opening and Doug Adams Intro
05:46 What we were expecting from this film
19:58 General reactions and comparing to Lord of the Rings
11:45 Reacting to the film and it's music (spoilers)
31:21 Headscratching: Reacting to the score
49:56 A Game of Themes?
78:50 Wrapping it up


Music Selections

00:00 "Blunt the Knives" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
00:40 "The Adventure Begins" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
05:23 "The World is Ahead" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
19:25 "Warg-Scouts" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
31:04 "A Thunder Battle" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
50:40 "The Crack of Doom"(LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring) by Howard Shore
57:41 "Out of the Frying-Pan" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
59:40 "The Breaking of the Fellowship" (LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring) by Howard Shore
72:47 "02_Old Friends (Extended)" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
76:58 "Radagast the Brown (Extended)" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore
83:29 "Dreaming of Bag End" (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey SE) by Howard Shore


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Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 7:03pm

Post #36 of 47 (161 views)
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I wish I could say I've learned a lot from Doug's book [In reply to] Can't Post

but - in terms of what there is to learn - I've learned, musically, very little! :-)

I've learned, emotionally, a lot. I have started to understand how two pieces of music I wouldn't put in the same 'bucket' can be, in fact, musically related. I don't understand it. I can't explain it to someone. I couldn't write music like that. But Shore can do all those things and it works, on an emotional level for the viewer/listener... whether that person understands how it works or not.

I sometimes kind of shake my head at some of the statements (mostly the negative ones) made about the score and wonder what that person would say if they had spent time trying to understand the music. They still might not like something - that's all fairly subjective that can't be undone by 'understanding' something. But I don't think they'd feel so comfortable making certain statements about it in their attempt to justify not liking it.


Quote
I would love to expound more on why I think the Hymn theme that goes with Frodo works so well, but this thread was about the theme with the wargs and all the evil stuff.


There's always the LOTR movie board. :-)

--

kind of unrelated but something that popped up from reading your post... my favorite statement about the music came from my friend-in-LOTR-score, Christian:
I finally managed to "reduce" the trilogy to two sentences, for a (musically educated) friend who asked what this music is like. My answer:

"Half-step vs. whole-step. And the whole-step wins!"

I'm grateful that, through my study of the music and Doug's writings... I understand what that means. :-)


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elevorn
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 7:06pm

Post #37 of 47 (151 views)
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if will be willing to weigh in, I'll work on that thread shortly// [In reply to] Can't Post

 



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 7:26pm

Post #38 of 47 (148 views)
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won't promise... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'll read it for sure.

If we're lucky, we'll get the attention of a few others who like to talk music:

LilyFairbairn and Loresilme come to mind. :-)


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Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 7:38pm

Post #39 of 47 (142 views)
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Still, an assumption [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously we disagree, and there is no point debating ad-nauseum. However I will say this-

All we can make is educated guesses here. And there is FAR more evidence in support of the talent, thoughtfulness, depth of ideas and thematic forward-thinking of Howard Shore and Peter Jackson, than there is on the opposite side, particularly when it comes to music choices.

If you want to believe Peter just went "Yeah, that sounds cool, stick it in there." fine.

i do not believe that is the case.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 9:52pm

Post #40 of 47 (150 views)
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A load of nothing [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't expect much to begin with from that podcast, though.


(This post was edited by Estel78 on Jan 11 2013, 9:53pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 10:24pm

Post #41 of 47 (115 views)
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well, I'll voice that I found it interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone is only interested in the music, they'd be wise to look at the time stamps for topics and push the slider ahead to at least around 30 minutes.

If nothing else, one can be assured that explanations for musical conundrums will come. But I think Doug did a nice job of addressing the music as well as he can considering the moment we're in now. We've seen AUJ but not yet the next two.

If one just can't bear waiting or trusting in this such that they feel compelled to maintain their bored, hipster, negative attitude... then have at it. I'm getting bored with the bored, negative, hipster attitudes.

It was amusing hearing Doug address all the rabid reactions to the score. ;-)


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Magpie
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 10:37pm

Post #42 of 47 (114 views)
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And... now that I've listened even further into the interview [In reply to] Can't Post

(to around 60 minutes in)...

I am dumbfounded that the musical information being provided could be considered a 'load of nothing'.


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 11 2013, 10:37pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 10:45pm

Post #43 of 47 (113 views)
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Nothing in terms of answering the most pressing questions... [In reply to] Can't Post

Three Bilbo themes.... whatever... i wanna know why Gondor Reborn, why the Nazgul theme? Wink

It makes so little sense to me, i have a hard time believing in two years it'll make more sense, i really do.


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 11:02pm

Post #44 of 47 (100 views)
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I'd certainly read that with interest [In reply to] Can't Post

... even though would not probably contribute or provide any thoughful feedback.


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 12 2013, 6:08am

Post #45 of 47 (88 views)
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again... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a feeling that the "Gondor reborn" theme is there for a good reason from the whole story perspective. As I put it some posts ago, you have these two characters, Thorin and Bilbo, the king and the common man, It's about what have just been put on motion by the relation of these two characters; the first step to the fourth age of Middle Earth.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


imin
Valinor


Jan 12 2013, 12:39pm

Post #46 of 47 (91 views)
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That's a really good way of looking at it [In reply to] Can't Post

i almost get the feeling you have come up with a better reason than PJ would have, where he just thinks it sounds cool, lol.

I think for me it is just so well ingrained in my memory it just doesnt fit the scene - even though you gave a really good reason to use it. I think i would have preferred if they could have written something which gave the same feeling as that piece of music but wasn't that exact music as its too associated with something else for me.

If i had seen the movies and listened to the lotr soundtrack less then i dont think i would have noticed and not cared.


DolGuldur
Registered User

Jan 13 2013, 4:34pm

Post #47 of 47 (80 views)
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The Nazgul theme [In reply to] Can't Post

I had no issues with the use of the Nazgul theme in AUJ. I recall that it was first used extensively during the prologue of FOTR with no discernible link to the Nazgul. It could therefore be taken to represent evil in a much broader sense.

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