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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Ancient Enemy and The Khazad Dum connection + Smaug Theme
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Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 2:14pm

Post #26 of 34 (117 views)
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not sure what you mean *exactly* by... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I finally found someone who doesn't think this theme was written for the Nazgul besides me."

If you mean you don't think this music written for LOTR was for the Nazgul you're wrong. It was. Doug writes (pg 101 in da Book) "The Ringwraiths earn the most prominent and ritualistic of the Mordor themes." He then explains how the music is tied into The History of the Ring theme.

But if you mean it wasn't 'written' in the Hobbit for the Nazgul, you could be (and surely are) right. But then, I don't think many of us think that. It's more likely that the music was written originally for The Nazgul and it's application/meaning is being broadened in The Hobbit.


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MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 3:32pm

Post #27 of 34 (104 views)
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Ah [In reply to] Can't Post

So it is. Probably wouldn't have made sense and now that I've had a night's sleep, I realize that. But it still could have been just slightly cool if it had been Sauron's mace, in my opinion. Wink

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 3:37pm

Post #28 of 34 (109 views)
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but but but [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't deny the fact that it is used heavily and dramatically in the Prologue. Therefore I don't think it can be called the "ringwraith" theme. It just doesn't make sense to me if it's already been used for multiple baddies. Then again the book says so, ah well. I still think I'm right teehee Tongue

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


RalphDamiani
Rivendell

Jan 6 2013, 3:44pm

Post #29 of 34 (101 views)
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The Morgoth connection [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps they have a similar theme because both dragons and Sauron served the same dark lord? We heard the Lothlorien theme for the Rivendell lancers, so perhaps it's the Noldor theme now?

I think they're just using the themes we previously associated with places and characters on a grander scale and linking them to the history of Middle-Earth.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 4:57pm

Post #30 of 34 (103 views)
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well, then.. you're getting into the 'can I disagree with the Artist' argument [In reply to] Can't Post

one I've made myself at times.

You made the statement that it wasn't written for the Ringwraiths. It *was* written for the Ringwraiths in LOTR. I don't want someone reading your statement and thinking you're right in regards to LOTR when you're not.

And then you don't think it can be called the Ringwraith theme but, up to this moment, that is the only thing by which is has been called by the composer and anyone speaking on his behalf.

Information from official sources may deal with any shift in meaning for this music by renaming it. But it hasn't been done yet. The thing is, (and I tried to make this point) this change in 'meaning' or 'alliance' has happened before and been dealt with in a variety of ways. And I think we get too hung up on names and meaning. It's music and it's meant to help us understand the story and entertain us. In the end, it doesn't matter what we call it. It matters if it worked in the situation or not. That is a worthy conversation to be sure.

It's not so important to me that Shore be 'right' but that people reading information about the score (LOTR anyhow) understand what is official information and what is fan speculation or opinion. And we can have a worthy conversation on our speculation and opinion. We just need to be clear with our statements and saying it wasn't written for the Ringwraiths or it isn't a Ringwraith theme is not accurate. At least not without being more precise in how one says it (like I said, we might speculate that it wasn't written for use in *The Hobbit* to represent the Ringwraiths).

It's an important point and one I work hard at achieving on my website. Enough so that I've included copious notes on what is *my* stuff and what is *official* stuff and when do I get to disagree. :-)

And, for what it's worth, I think your speculation on what it means now... now that they're expanding the meaning out from the Ringwraiths to something *else*... is very good. I can totally buy it as a viable explanation.


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 6 2013, 4:59pm)


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 7 2013, 7:21am

Post #31 of 34 (69 views)
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I'm sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

No need for hostility friend. I didn't intend my previous post to be taken too seriously! It was just a bit of fun! I don't intend to question what Shore has said himself nor do I intend to create confusion on this board. But, it is a message board after all and none of it should be taken too seriously. Everyone, in my opinion, should take most of what goes on here on these boards as speculation. That is what the majority of posts here are after all. I feel most of the time it goes without being said. However, I absolutely did say that it was all my opinion on the matter. So, technically I did specify. Wink I don't think we should take it this seriously. It's all in good fun and I've enjoyed the conversation.

Now, you said that I made a statement saying it was not written for the Ringwraiths and I guess that is partially true. I don't have a darn clue what Shore has said, I just know what I've seen in the films and what I have stumbled across over these past 12 years, but honestly it's really beside the point. I simply read this board and posed the question to myself: Ok, this song plays in LOTR for the Ringwraiths quite often, but it also plays in the prologue heavily, so what is the real meaning of it? The only logical conclusion to follow is that though it may have been "written," as you tell me, for the Ringwraiths originally, the theme grew to have a deeper and darker meaning across the whole of Middle-earth. Once fellowship was released, and really before because the decision needed to be made before release, it was no longer "written" for the Ringwraiths alone. That's all I'm saying and so my post was simply my opinion on the matter, my "speculation."

And it's not really even about being right and wrong or even official. I'm not trying to disagree with any artist as I'm a filmmaker and artist myself. Art is subjective and does not exist without speculation. So I'm subjected to Middle-earth, which I love, and am speculating as good message boards allow me to do. And still it should not be such a serious and scholarly matter, but I feel often times that's what we all try to do here on these boards. We work way too hard to differentiate and decide what is right and wrong rather than just sit back, enjoy what one group of fans, PJ and company, have created, as well as enjoy each other's speculation. We try to label things as "official" when "official" is really just subjective and full of speculation in itself when broken down.

Hope there's no hard feelings, again I didn't mean my previous post about being right to be taken as anything but irony. Smile

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 7 2013, 4:36pm

Post #32 of 34 (53 views)
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Not an ounce of hostility! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if you had a chance to look around my site you'd see I have a whole section entitled: Official information and when I get to disagree with it.

All I was doing was putting a context to your comments. They aren't wrong and I'm not angry or hostile. (perhaps I need to use more emoticons)

If you don't have a darn clue what Shore has said, I can clue you in! I know what he's said. It doesn't mean you don't get to have your own opinion but you should know what he thinks and says.

To put some context on how I approach the music, you could read these two sections of my site:

HOWARD SHORE, DOUG ADAMS & ME - and my right to disagree

"the composersí intentions are the key to understanding their work" : sometimes

The most pertinent part is this:

Quote
The goal is multifold, imo. First, to seek to be educated about as much as one can, from as valid a source as one can. Second, to allow for thoughts other than the 'official line' to exist and be discussed. Third, to understand the difference between the two approaches when forming an opinion, stating a point, or debating an issue. That goes for both 'sides'... that is: people who gravitate towards one approach strongly. If you're all fact based... lighten up sometimes. If you're all personal opinion based... educate yourself. Learn to listen as much as you like to talk. Understand where the other party is coming from and allow for differences in approach.


And I'm not aiming that comment at you. It was formed (years ago) from people I've encountered over the last 10 years discussing Tolkien, the movies, and/or the score. But it is important to me that information be accurate and accurately attributed to 'official line' and 'personal thought'.

I'm not so sure official is subjective when it's codified into the written word. If Shore says "X", then "X" sure seems like official information. If I think "Y", I wouldn't want one person in the world to think that was official. I want them all to know it was my opinion and that their mileage might vary.

But to bring this around, I am not actually disagreeing with you. Only seeking to clarify/qualify some statements you made as not accurate when it comes to what Shore has said (in some cases, many times) about the music. I don't disagree with your opinion on the music at all. And I think you are right to want to take interpretation of the music past what Shore has already said.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 7 2013, 5:17pm

Post #33 of 34 (44 views)
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ah [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok haha, sorry. It's very hard to discern feelings on these boards sometimes. I see what you are saying now and I agree that information is confusing as it is, so we should try our hardest to help each other discern official from outside speculation. Very good! Smile

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 7 2013, 5:21pm

Post #34 of 34 (74 views)
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fantastic [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to write in a very straightforward factual way and accuracy is important to me (I think because I strive so hard to achieve it for my website).

So I can see where someone might misread my tone. I'm generally much more relaxed than people take me for in writing - although when riled, I can nip a little.

I'm glad you're thinking about the music and I wouldn't be at all surprised, when we get more information on the sountdrack, to find you're right about the music now known as the Ringwraith's Theme.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 7 2013, 5:21pm)

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