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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Ngila Dickson

Mauricio
Bree

Dec 31 2012, 3:13am

Post #1 of 22 (1233 views)
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Ngila Dickson Can't Post

Does anybody know why she didn't return? All the key player from the LOTR trilogy came back for The Hobbit, and Ngila is definitely one of the main components of Middle Earth's current identity.

I think her presence is greatly missed, even more highlighted by the fact that the new designer is trying to emulate her style. And the results end up being sub par, they fail to live up to what came before and fail to become their own thing. And worst of all, they "feel" like costumes.

A minor bug perhaps, but it hunted me from the first snippet of footage to my first viewing of AUJ.

Aside from the old "scheduling conflicts" (which obviously nobody believes, she's only worked on 3 movies since 2009, two of which were less than minor), has there been any insight on her departure??


morgul lord
Rivendell


Dec 31 2012, 3:20am

Post #2 of 22 (736 views)
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I don't think the new costumes are bad. [In reply to] Can't Post

But yeah, Ngila's were probably better.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 31 2012, 3:25am

Post #3 of 22 (770 views)
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Yeah, the only thing I've heard... [In reply to] Can't Post

is a scheduling conflict. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

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tiamy
Rivendell


Dec 31 2012, 5:56am

Post #4 of 22 (637 views)
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My theory... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that Ngila's costumes was under appreciated by the filmmakers. She might have worked so hard for a costume and PJ will just show a classic headshot.

Remember the part in ROTK DVD when they were talking about Eowyn's gown during the cup drinking scene in the celebration at Edoras ("Westu Aragorn, hal")?

She did every part of the gown in meticulous detail and was completely disappointed when PJ just show a close up of Eowyn?


dormouse
Half-elven


Dec 31 2012, 10:22am

Post #5 of 22 (541 views)
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She was working on something else.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would you not believe that?


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 31 2012, 10:24am

Post #6 of 22 (520 views)
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TORn users ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Always trying to come up with conspiracies.

Wink

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willowing
Lorien

Dec 31 2012, 10:41am

Post #7 of 22 (532 views)
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Nigila Dickson [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mauricio

You will find a discussion thread and the answer to your question on page 269 in The Movie Discussion-The Hobbit section.

Last time I heard she was designing costumes for The Green Lantern.


Arannir
Valinor

Dec 31 2012, 11:27am

Post #8 of 22 (512 views)
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Why mus you always meddle... okay, this could really become the forum's classic phrase ;) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...is that Ngila's costumes was under appreciated by the filmmakers. She might have worked so hard for a costume and PJ will just show a classic headshot.

Remember the part in ROTK DVD when they were talking about Eowyn's gown during the cup drinking scene in the celebration at Edoras ("Westu Aragorn, hal")?

She did every part of the gown in meticulous detail and was completely disappointed when PJ just show a close up of Eowyn?



tiamy
Rivendell


Dec 31 2012, 11:55am

Post #9 of 22 (465 views)
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hahaha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't let me started about the 'creative differences' between Howard Shore and Peter Jackson while making King Kong. A part of me wants to know a little bit more about it. :P


unexpectedvisitor
Rohan

Dec 31 2012, 3:05pm

Post #10 of 22 (444 views)
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this is really starting to get absurd [In reply to] Can't Post

i can't believe the lengths people are going to in order to find things to complain about or to dream up ill-will. this is ridiculous.

when you're talking about a crew composed of hundreds of people and a decade removed from the original project, there almost always is gonna be some new faces. it's rather surprising that as many people are back as there are.

i would argue that production designer Grant Major was a bigger loss than Ms. Dickson except that Dan Hennah did such a great job stepping up in that department.

i dunno what this rubbish is about "sub-par" costumes. the costuming was every bit as good as it was in LotR and in some cases it is better (the Elves, particularly Elrond and Galadriel).


Elenorflower
Gondor


Dec 31 2012, 3:44pm

Post #11 of 22 (406 views)
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yes I miss Ngilas costumes too, [In reply to] Can't Post

they were by far superior. Although the current costumes are very good, they dont match the natural organic feel of Ngilas designs IMO. Whoever gave Thranduil silver disco boots needs a word in their ear.


unexpectedvisitor
Rohan

Dec 31 2012, 4:11pm

Post #12 of 22 (393 views)
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nostalgia [In reply to] Can't Post

some of you guys have some serious nostalgia factor going for the LotR movies in comparison to AUJ. i am not kidding. Dickson's costumes "far superior"? come off it.

in their efforts to individualize the dwarves, a few of the hair and make-up designs may be a bit much in AUJ. but we're talking about costumes and the dwarves' costumes are all great. Bilbo's clothing is better than anything the Hobbits got to wear in LotR (aside from their Elven cloak pins). the Elven costumes are better across the board. that someone would insinuate Elrond's and Galadriel's costumes were better in LotR...don't get me started. the textural detail in Radagast's costume is astounding.

it's fine that some of you had problems with some of the creative decisions that were made in the movie, or the tone, or whatever. as much as i disagree on many of your points, i'm not going to tell you that you are wrong because you and i subjectively the movie in different ways (though i wish some of you would more often acknowledge that you're just stating your opinion when you make such definitive statements as "LotR had greatly superior effects" or "the editing in AUJ is horrible" and so on) but some of you are acting like every single little thing about LotR was better than it was in AUJ. and i'm sorry, but that's simply not true. that is your nostalgia talking. all of the LotR movies are flawed. AUJ is flawed. LotR has the more inherently compelling narrative but there are different strengths and weaknesses and even plenty of equal, common ground to the two entities, and not to recognize that is to flaunt your biases a little too blatantly.

if you like Dickson's costumes better, fine, but to state that they are "far superior" is going way overboard and giving the current designers and crew, many of whom were also involved with LotR, far too little credit.


shadowdog
Rohan

Dec 31 2012, 4:52pm

Post #13 of 22 (349 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Also people are comparing an introduction to a tale against a completed trilogy. I think a lot of the complaints and comments about what is in AUJ should be held until the third and final film is released and we get to see the entire tale.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Dec 31 2012, 5:19pm

Post #14 of 22 (351 views)
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Yes you have hit upon a point that applies to much of the negitive [In reply to] Can't Post

criticism of An Unexpected Journey from many sources.

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Magpie
Immortal


Dec 31 2012, 5:32pm

Post #15 of 22 (329 views)
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won't disagree with that ^ [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I can't say if it's nostalgia or a sense of loyalty or not wanting to look like one gives ones approval too easily or what.

But I just can't buy some of the justification for disapproval that gets served up. I can accept that we all feel differently and if someone doesn't like something, they don't like it.

But the reasons for not liking it just don't make sense to me sometimes. And, like you said, I think this leap to "I feel this" to "It *is* this" is one that we take way too quickly and often for my taste.

I didn't notice any decrease in costume quality. I think we're seeing a different kind - for a different need - of costume. I might have a more decided and informed opinion when I see the other movies and other needs (other cities, stations, positions, personalities, etc) for costumes.

I also don't attribute Ngila's absence to anything nefarious. Unless given good intel otherwise, to speculate on matters such as this flirts with gossip and, at times, defamation. It's not good form to attribute bad juju and relationships to people merely because it seems satisfying to speculate on the matter.


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unexpectedvisitor
Rohan

Dec 31 2012, 5:53pm

Post #16 of 22 (336 views)
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i don't mean to downplay Ngila, either [In reply to] Can't Post

overall she did a great job with LotR, it's just that when i watch AUJ, i basically see the costume team just trying to continue that tradition of excellence. except now their work is coming under the scrutiny of 5K shooting and HFR, so it has to be even MORE detailed and perfectly executed than what Ngila had to worry about. if you don't like the basic look of Radagast's outfit or the dwarves, well, that may be a bit more on the concept design (which is largely the same people as it was for LotR) than the costume designer--who is basically looking for the practical way to bring those concept designs to life. they have to make changes and creative suggestions and whatnot in order to do that but they're basically starting with inspiration from the concept designers. and i think the technical execution on all the costume designs in AUJ was fantastic. like i said, they slightly modified the approach to costuming the Elves and i personally think it was an improvement. the Elves looked great in LotR but it was all just a little too flowy, silky or chiffony...the Elven costume color palette is a little more varied and sophisticated in AUJ, there's more layering, the details don't get lost like i sometimes felt they did with Galadriel's costumes in LotR. really good stuff. and Thranduil's headpiece rules, but that may have been a Richard Taylor contribution.


Rostron2
Gondor


Dec 31 2012, 6:18pm

Post #17 of 22 (313 views)
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Agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

It's overboard, looking for flaws where there are none. Dickson's costumes were great, and Bilbo's was retained for older Bilbo. Read one of the source books available about the amount of thought and work that went into the new costumes, and then decide.

This is classic human behavior. We have Armchair-everything now.


sycorax82
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 12:35am

Post #18 of 22 (292 views)
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Most of the characters' looks are directly from the original trilogy [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dwarves and Silvan Elves are obviously new. Also, Radagast...highly interesting costume decision with both him and Thranduil...

Maybe Ngila Dickson thought she had done the bulk of her work in this universe for LOTR and didn't feel like returning? Her influence is all over the Hobbit films.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 1 2013, 1:00am

Post #19 of 22 (322 views)
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Why no Nglia? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the speculation seems reasonable, for instance that she had grown beyond Middle-earth and/or did not want to return.

A scheduling conflict might have had something to do with it as well, especially when you factor in the delays early on.

However, way back when Guillermo was still the director, he hired a different costume designer for TH, an Australian named Kate Hawley (I've met her, a beautiful person in every sense of the word). As it happened, she left the project when he left. So by the time PJ took over, it may have been too late to bring Nglia on board, assuming she was even interested in the first place.

A side note from which certain conclusions could be drawn: Kate Hawley also worked in the costume department on PJ's Lovely Bones, but Nglia hasn't worked with him since LOTR...


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 1 2013, 1:06am)


Mahtion
Rivendell

Jan 1 2013, 6:46am

Post #20 of 22 (251 views)
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Different styles [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves do look much better in AUJ than Rings. I loved the Noldor armor but Elrond's new crimson tinge to his armor looks much better. As someone else said the layering is much improved and realistic, you barely see the Mirkwood royals with Thranduil in the Prologue but their costumes look better in comparison to the Lorien sentinels with Haldir. The Rivendell elves mostly wear long gowns with no true definitions, obviously there are some exceptions like Legolas's epilogue costume which looked great but was cut. The main detail I noticed were the elvish boots. I adored the leaf wrap design of the elvish soft leather boots in Rings and wondered why everybody is wearing thick leather riding boots in AUJ. Now it makes sense with a new costume designer.


Mauricio
Bree

Jan 2 2013, 4:14am

Post #21 of 22 (183 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
some of you guys have some serious nostalgia factor going for the LotR movies in comparison to AUJ. i am not kidding. Dickson's costumes "far superior"? come off it.

in their efforts to individualize the dwarves, a few of the hair and make-up designs may be a bit much in AUJ. but we're talking about costumes and the dwarves' costumes are all great. Bilbo's clothing is better than anything the Hobbits got to wear in LotR (aside from their Elven cloak pins). the Elven costumes are better across the board. that someone would insinuate Elrond's and Galadriel's costumes were better in LotR...don't get me started. the textural detail in Radagast's costume is astounding.

it's fine that some of you had problems with some of the creative decisions that were made in the movie, or the tone, or whatever. as much as i disagree on many of your points, i'm not going to tell you that you are wrong because you and i subjectively the movie in different ways (though i wish some of you would more often acknowledge that you're just stating your opinion when you make such definitive statements as "LotR had greatly superior effects" or "the editing in AUJ is horrible" and so on) but some of you are acting like every single little thing about LotR was better than it was in AUJ. and i'm sorry, but that's simply not true. that is your nostalgia talking. all of the LotR movies are flawed. AUJ is flawed. LotR has the more inherently compelling narrative but there are different strengths and weaknesses and even plenty of equal, common ground to the two entities, and not to recognize that is to flaunt your biases a little too blatantly.

if you like Dickson's costumes better, fine, but to state that they are "far superior" is going way overboard and giving the current designers and crew, many of whom were also involved with LotR, far too little credit.


Agreed on all accounts (except for the glaring indication that Elrond's costumes and Galadriel's gowns were improved upon, seriously come on Tongue ). But as much as nostalgia prevents some from viewing all that's right with "The Hobbit" (which is a lot), there's also the opposite. A shield of unabashed and wild love that won't let some see that there are also some major flaws. Which is not to say LOTR was perfect because it wasn't, just that some of the things that were wrong with the original trilogy weren't as obvious or as evident or as mind numbingly bad.

I really liked AUJ, but I liked it more as the beginning of a trilogy than as a movie that can stand on its own feet. I found myself loving some things, hating others, bored, excited, thrilled, amused, angry, aroused, and entertained. If I had to summarize the movie in one word it would be: uneven. For every thing that it gets astoundingly right, it gets another horribly wrong (right and wrong being, of course, words used based on my criteria and my own perception trying to be as objective as possible knowing beforehand I will fail). So it was a wild ride for sure, it left me dying to see DoS, and more than anything it provided with me with the one thing that matters the most: a version of "The Hobbit" that was unexpected.

But what I meant by "beginning of a trilogy", is that AUJ will grow or be lessen by the next two installments. Something that I didn't feel happened with LOTR, especially considering FOTR is my favorite by a long shot.

PS: Another tendency that I've noticed is that people justify and accept some things in active discussions because a lot of effort was put into it. Just because we get vlogs doesn't mean that the same amount of effort (if not more) isn't put in other movies regardless of their scale. I'm sure the make up department tried their hardest in Resident Evil 5, or the costume and wardrobe department did their very best in "The last Airbender", hell, even the animators that brought Jar Jar Binks to life were striving for the best. So I think the only way to analyze or discuss something is if we talk about the end result itself and how it stands or falls by its own merits.


unexpectedvisitor
Rohan

Jan 2 2013, 3:14pm

Post #22 of 22 (198 views)
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i agree that the end result is important [In reply to] Can't Post

but it's not just the extreme effort that's apparent, it is the skill and craft. some may disagree but not only do i see a ton of passion on the screen when i watch AUJ, i see technical excellence. add to that to a wonderful story, characters, and themes...and it earns a lot of good will on my part. now, you're right, it's not a perfect movie--it's far too big and ambitious to come anywhere close to some "perfect" ideal in concept and form--and any claim of such would be an affront to the same modicum of objectivity that we should be applying in any instance of art appreciation, but it also can't be everything to everyone and the same things that some complain about are things that others praise and love. so we have to be careful about definitively labeling the more subjective elements of the experience definitively "good" or "bad" when there is so much variety in the opinions and so much reasoning that could back up either position.

for instance, i might have been a bit off-base asserting that the Elven costumes are definitely better in AUJ, but in my next post i gave my reasons for saying that, and i think they are good reasons. so we can compare reasons and discuss but let's refrain from trying to overstate our positions in opposition to each other.

 
 

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