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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why Thorin, I can read this map at Moon Letter Cliff™!
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Dec 29 2012, 10:47pm

Post #26 of 36 (248 views)
I heard it's where Elrond kills Aslan. [In reply to] Can't Post

Oops, wrong table.

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Dec 29 2012, 10:48pm

Post #27 of 36 (246 views)
Sacrilege!// [In reply to] Can't Post


Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

Tol Eressea

Dec 29 2012, 11:01pm

Post #28 of 36 (274 views)
The Hobbit, book and film, is a fairy tale. [In reply to] Can't Post

We are meant to suspend disbelief, engage our imaginations, let the writer take us on a fanciful journey - and enjoy the trip.Smile

Superuser / Moderator

Dec 29 2012, 11:26pm

Post #29 of 36 (242 views)
:D [In reply to] Can't Post

"Where did that annoying messenger disapper to?"
"He ... slipped."

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.

Ataahua's stories

Grey Havens

Dec 29 2012, 11:28pm

Post #30 of 36 (232 views)
This may depend on a viewer's tastes and beliefs... [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
It's the same reasoning as "God told me to". That's not engaging or enthralling, since it takes all controls out of the characters' hands. It certainly does not serve as a justification for Gandalf doing as he did (throughout both books) and really draws me out of having any appreciation for the storytelling techniques at play. People laud Tolkien for being so agonizingly realistic at times, yet he pulls this stuff and gets away with it? I find that just blinded.

My point, which I may not have made clearly, is that the great beauty the natural world has at times, and which we humans happen to be able to appreciate with strong, positive emotional responses to it, is a factor that leads some people to believe that the world has been created in order for it to be so, and we have been created in order that we be able to appreciate it. If one happens to have such a belief (and that Tolkien did is well-documented) it seems not too big a stretch that this Creator might also help things along in the right direction at times. And this scene shows us what can be thought of as an instance of such an occurrence, in a locale that has that sort of awe-inspiring beauty.

I don't see what this has to do with the characters' free will. Elrond was still free to decide he wanted to detain the Dwarves even after he noted that the coincidence and ascribed meaning to it. Thorin was always free to decide at Bag End that, gee, Balin is right, it is not worth the trouble and he should lead the Company back to the Blue Hills and their peaceful life there before he gets someone killed, in which case this moment would never have even happened.

For the record, I am personally not a believer in any Higher Power. However, I find that my personal beliefs don't get in the way of my enjoying a story that has this element. I imagine that someone who does, could find this an especially attractive feature of the story.


Dec 29 2012, 11:41pm

Post #31 of 36 (231 views)
Can you name one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would anyone stargaze in a spot that not only limits you to half the sky die to the cliff behind you, but has a waterfall blocking parts of your view as well?

No, it's a problem that PJ has invented nonsensical areas just for people to "ooh" and "aah" at.


Dec 29 2012, 11:44pm

Post #32 of 36 (225 views)
Can you name one? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would anyone stargaze in a spot that not only limits you to half the sky die to the cliff behind you, but has a waterfall blocking parts of your view as well?

They wouldn't. It's clearly not for stargazing, it's just a pretty place to impress the audience, but makes little since in Rivendell.


Dec 29 2012, 11:49pm

Post #33 of 36 (217 views)
Elrond is probably looking for the Man in the Moon. / [In reply to] Can't Post


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Dec 30 2012, 1:49am

Post #34 of 36 (218 views)
I just imagined Elrond kicking someone of the edge, shouting "This! Is! Rivendell!" // [In reply to] Can't Post



Dec 30 2012, 8:49am

Post #35 of 36 (169 views)
Logic for stout flies [In reply to] Can't Post

Imladris is a haven and homage to Eregion specifically Ost-En-edhil. The Noldor of Eregion were very close to the dwarves of Khazad-dum. Celebrimbor helped make the ithilin on the doors of Moria. The elves of Eregion shared the art of ithilin and moon viewing by learning it from their dwarf friends. The survivors of Eregion lived with Elrond for 3000 years at the least. In memory of Eregion and/or to commererate the old friendship with Durins folk, the elves of Eregion built a chamber or cliff to study the moon letters. Obviously Elrond likes to read and amass knowledge, much of it obscure or forgotten. Is it too difficult to imagine that he would know dwarvish from his diplomatic dealings with Eregion and Khazad-dum when he was in service to Gil-galad of Lindon? I believe if you had the opportunity to explore Rivendell, it would be full of odd design choices or areas dedicated to long abandoned art forms and practices. A lot can change in even a millennium or a century, perhaps when Imladris was founded during the destruction of Eregion having a moon reading stone was popular and commonplace. Moon runes may have been used for secret correspondence during the Elven war against Sauron and even Last Alliance to prevent intelligence from reaching Sauron in Mordor. Fast forward to the Hobbit and Elrond hardly uses the thing any longer.


Dec 30 2012, 9:08am

Post #36 of 36 (188 views)
Yes, several.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The block of crystal captures and intensifies moonlight. That, in itself, makes it a very Elvish artefact - think Feanor and the Silmarils, Galadriel's starglass. The idea of trapping light within crystal, reflecting light from crystal, fits firmly within the Elvish culture Tolkien created.

It makes absolute sense to me that Elrond would have a place to study the properties of moonlight. How do you think he acquired his knowledge of moon runes and other Middle Earth magic/technology that makes use of moonlight - like the doors of Moria? Is it more logical to assume that he just knew it by a flash of inspiration when the dwarves happened by or that his knowledge is the result of centuries of study?

That's my first suggestion. My second is that it's a very attractive recreational space for a people who like the night sky and the sound of water. If you'd been around thousands of years, wouldn't you want some different places to sit and think?

You're creating problems where they don't exist.

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