Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
A new star...

estelien
Bree


Dec 27 2012, 11:21pm

Post #1 of 13 (659 views)
Shortcut
A new star... Can't Post

Re-reading the Children of Hurin this week, I came across this passage I hadn't noticed the 1st time around. In chapter 2, during the battle of unnumbered tears, Hurin urges Turgon to flee, Turgon is reluctant, and Hurin says to him: "if [Gondolin] stands only a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of elves and men", and also "from you and from me a new star shall arise." Looking at the genealogies, I assume this means Aragorn. (Turgon's granddaughter is Idril, Hurin's cousin is Tuor, Tuor and Idril's grandson is Elrond, Aragorn's forefather.) It amazes me that he would foresee a hero born so many years in the future for a problem that hadn't arisen yet. On the other hand the word "star" lends itself to Earendil, being the morning star and a descendant of Turgon and Hurin. But is Earendil the "hope of elves and men"? Anyone else have thoughts on this?


SilentLion
Rivendell

Dec 27 2012, 11:51pm

Post #2 of 13 (319 views)
Shortcut
I read both lines to refer to Earendil [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the first line offers a very generic prophecy of "the hope of elves and men". The line which follows makes that prophecy much more specific by saying that "a new star shall rise". A lot of descendants or accomplishments could be characterized as "hope" but the Star of Earendil is the only "new star" in the recorded history of Middle Earth.

I think the primary meaning of Hurin's words is Earendil, although a secondary meaning is that the "hope of elves and men" continually springs from Earendil's line in the Second and Third ages.


squire
Valinor


Dec 27 2012, 11:52pm

Post #3 of 13 (300 views)
Shortcut
Surely he means Earendil [In reply to] Can't Post

That makes a lot more sense in the context of the struggle against Morgoth. He became a star, as you note. And he is the hope of Elves and Men in that through him the Valar relented and reentered Middle-earth to dispose of Morgoth once and for all - the Enemy of the Elves and the Men who were Elf-friends and allies.

Even assuming that Tolkien went back in and inserted a reference to Aragorn in his early writings, it begs the question of why, since as you also note, Aragorn's mission in life is to resolve a situation that didn't yet exist in the Heroic Age of Turgon and Hurin.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 28 2012, 4:18am

Post #4 of 13 (283 views)
Shortcut
My favorite reference to the Star [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that prophesy undoubtedly refers to Eärendil like Squire and SilentLion have stated. Eärendil is the hope of both the elves and men because he sails into the West and pleads on their behalf to the Valar. It is he who saves the elves and men by urging the Valar to act. And of course, he even returns and fights Ancalagon.

Your quote is a great reference to his birth and subsequent works. But my favorite reference to his future fate lies in the original 1916-17 tale The Fall of Gondolin. It is after Tuor and the exiles have escaped from burning Gondolin and Eärendil has already been led ahead by other refuges. It reads:

Quote
Then said Tuor: "Lo! there is Eärendel my son; behold, his face shineth as a star in the waste..."


Perfection Heart

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 28 2012, 4:50am

Post #5 of 13 (329 views)
Shortcut
"Blind you are, Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In chapter 2, during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Hurin urges Turgon to flee, Turgon is reluctant, and Hurin says to him, "if it [i.e., Gondolin] stands only a little while ... then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men", and also, "from you and from me a new star shall arise".


It's not Hurin but his brother Huor who is speaking.


Quote
Looking at the genealogies [..] Turgon's granddaughter is Idril


Idril is Turgon's daughter not his granddaughter.


Quote
Idril's grandson is Elrond, Aragon's forefather


Aragon descends not from Elrond but from Elrond's brother, Elros.

As the others have said, the reference is to Earendil.

Notice that Huor, who said he prophesied "with the eyes of death", is soon killed by a poison arrow through the eye. I take this as Morgoth's attempt to poison the future.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


sador
Half-elven


Dec 28 2012, 12:56pm

Post #6 of 13 (266 views)
Shortcut
I like this ! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you!


CuriousG
Valinor


Dec 28 2012, 6:02pm

Post #7 of 13 (256 views)
Shortcut
Another reason to believe it's Earendil [In reply to] Can't Post

After the Fifth Battle, Morgoth is upset that he can't find Turgon or his kingdom.

Quote
"...for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him."

Since Turgon was dead when Morgoth fell and had nothing to do with his "ruin," I take that to mean that Earendil was the ruin that came to Morgoth form Turgon, the same thing as the new star that will arise from Turgon and Huor (that prophecy is made about 3 pages earlier).


estelien
Bree


Dec 31 2012, 7:55pm

Post #8 of 13 (218 views)
Shortcut
ah... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That makes a lot more sense in the context of the struggle against Morgoth. He became a star, as you note. And he is the hope of Elves and Men in that through him the Valar relented and reentered Middle-earth to dispose of Morgoth once and for all - the Enemy of the Elves and the Men who were Elf-friends and allies.

Even assuming that Tolkien went back in and inserted a reference to Aragorn in his early writings, it begs the question of why, since as you also note, Aragorn's mission in life is to resolve a situation that didn't yet exist in the Heroic Age of Turgon and Hurin.

Thanks... that makes more sense. I'd forgotten that Earendil brings the valar back to middle-earth to fight Morgoth - that would explain the 'hope' part.


PhantomS
Rohan


Jan 2 2013, 1:02pm

Post #9 of 13 (242 views)
Shortcut
explains Aragorn's cover name [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps this is why he was named Estel when he was a boy, as it makes sense to be Estel in Earendil's son's house. A gentle nod to his heritage from the lines of the Edain and specifically Earendil (a mix of all three and Elves) by Elrond the lore-master while at the same time a convenient disguise so others wouldn't know who this boy is.


Nerven
Rivendell

Jan 5 2013, 7:20pm

Post #10 of 13 (312 views)
Shortcut
Speaking of Earendil [In reply to] Can't Post

was he restricted to his ship and could only fly through the sky or was he allowed to walk in Valinor. I would imagine that he wants to meet his family once in a while and his arriving son for example. So I really wonder if he could take one day off.


Nolofinwe
The Shire

Jan 12 2013, 5:53pm

Post #11 of 13 (164 views)
Shortcut
Hurin, with the eyes of death [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Re-reading the Children of Hurin this week, I came across this passage I hadn't noticed the 1st time around. In chapter 2, during the battle of unnumbered tears, Hurin urges Turgon to flee, Turgon is reluctant, and Hurin says to him: "if [Gondolin] stands only a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of elves and men", and also "from you and from me a new star shall arise." Looking at the genealogies, I assume this means Aragorn. (Turgon's granddaughter is Idril, Hurin's cousin is Tuor, Tuor and Idril's grandson is Elrond, Aragorn's forefather.) It amazes me that he would foresee a hero born so many years in the future for a problem that hadn't arisen yet. On the other hand the word "star" lends itself to Earendil, being the morning star and a descendant of Turgon and Hurin. But is Earendil the "hope of elves and men"? Anyone else have thoughts on this?



It is my opinion that he was most assuredly refering to Earendil, who's voyage West with a Silmaril set in motion the return of the Valar to Middle Earth which led to the defeat of Morgoth, the destruction of Thangorodrim and the end of the First Age.

Sauron coming to power after the expulsion of Morgoth into the Void had not entered the minds of anyone, perhaps save Sauron himself, and even then, only in his dreams.

Hurin saw 'with the eyes of death' that the only hope for victory over Morgoth depended on Turgon escaping the Arnoediad and returning to Gondolin, if only for a short while (from the perspective of the first born). Having read all of the accounts of the Elder Days, I must say that, while I enjoy and appreciate what C. Tolkien did in "The Children of Hurin", that is, constructing a tale of the Elder Days to stand alone, " 'tween it's own covers." that accounting of Turin and the waning years of the First Age, leaves out many details that are included in the versions contained in Silmarillion, Lost Tales, & History of Middle Earth.

From the house of Hador & Turgon a new star shall rise.... From Tuor (House of Hador) and Idril (House of Turgon/Fingolfin/Finwe) came the salvation of Men and Elves.

So, it is my opinion that Hurin's statements to Turgon can only refer to Earendil.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 14 2013, 12:02am

Post #12 of 13 (173 views)
Shortcut
Huor, not Hurin. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Nolofinwe
The Shire

Jan 14 2013, 3:48am

Post #13 of 13 (404 views)
Shortcut
huor/hurin [In reply to] Can't Post

It may well be Huor speaking to Turgon in some accounts, but unless I am greatly mistaken, in the standalone "Narn I... Hurin" it is Hurin who spoke thus to Turgon. That is the most recent version I have read, so that's what was most readily available in my memory. In any event Hurin/Huor were foretelling that salvation from Morgoth could come only from scions of the Houses of Hador & Fingolfin (Turgon). Turgon received much the same information from Ulmo.

I don't see how it could possibly be a reference to Aragorn. I can't say I've ever even heard that proposed as a theory before.

Interesting idea, but not a likely one, I'm afraid. Morgoth was their foe, and had he conquered all of M-E, then there would never have been an opportunity for Sauron to come to power. I can't imagine anyone from the Elder Days worrying about what danger would succeed Morgoth were Morgoth ever defeated.

By all means argue your theory if you think me mistaken.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.