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Saelind
Lorien
Nov 13 2007, 6:32am
Post #1 of 19
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Chapter 4 A Short Cut to Mushrooms I
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After a week off, I’m back again to lead a chapter discussion. And Real Life interferes again! (Had to work tonight) This chapter is relatively short but has some good material. I do intend to go back and comment on the chapter discussions that I have missed so please don’t feel slighted if I haven’t participated in your discussion when you’ve participated in mine.
The chapter opens the morning after the hobbits have spent the night with the elves. Frodo wakes up refreshed. The Elves are gone but they left food and drink for the hobbits. Good hosts indeed! Pippin starts in on Frodo almost immediately.
“’What is the plan for today?’ asked Pippin.”
“’To walk to Bucklebury as quickly as possible,’ answered Frodo, and gave his attention to the food.
“’Do you think we shall see anything of those Riders?’ asked Pippin cheerfully…
“’Yes, probably,’ said Frodo, not liking the reminder. ‘But I hope to get across the river without their seeing us.’”
“’Did you find out anything about them from Gildor?’”
“’Not much-only hints and riddles.’ said Frodo evasively.”
“’Did you ask about the sniffling?’”
“’We didn’t discuss it,’ said Frodo with his mouth full.”
“’You should have. I am sure it is very important.’”
“’In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to explain it,’ said Frodo sharply. ‘And now leave me in peace for a bit! I don’t want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think!’”
“’Good heavens!’ said Pippin. ‘At breakfast?’ He walked away towards the edge of the green.
There are several levels to this exchange. There is humor with Pippin playing the part of the pesky child full of questions and Frodo the exasperated parent trying to eat his breakfast. Sort of like someone wanting me to answer questions before I’ve had my coffee.
But, Pippin is sharper than he appears. He knows the Black Riders are not ordinary “Big People” and Frodo is trying to avoid telling Pippin too much. How much do you think Pippin actually knew? (And yes, I know “A Conspiracy Unmasked” is coming up but work with me here).
Is this still a “hobbit walking party” or are things getting more serious?
More tomorrow. I really need to find my bed.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 13 2007, 7:01am
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Even Frodo doesn't know what the Black Riders are.
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Gandalf has told him of the Nazgûl, but not what they look like. All Pippin could know of them he would have gotten from Sam, who must know less than Frodo. What they do know is that these Riders must be servants of the Enemy. So I think that in this exchange, Pippin just wants all the information that Frodo has, so that he can know how to respond. Unfortunately, Frodo has learned little from Gildor.
I like Frodo's grim guess that they will indeed see more of the Riders.
Were Gildor's responses the previous evening really "riddles", as Frodo calls them here?
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Beren IV
Gondor
Nov 13 2007, 7:54am
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One thing that I think characterizes Elves and also Maiar is that they tend to be cryptic to the layman. They know a great deal, but they also recognize that they don't know everything, and they know a number of things that could be everything. From Gildor's prospective, I imagine that he has a couple of guesses of what the black riders are, ringwraiths being one of them, but there may be some other, less unsettling, possibilities as well. He also knows that the power of these beings is terror, and knowing more about them, but not knowing what their weaknesses are, will make them potentially even scarier if they truly are ringwraiths. Gildor does not want to frighten Frodo from his journey.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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SilentLion
Rivendell
Nov 13 2007, 11:19am
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The reluctance to talk directly about the danger posed by the Black Riders is a good storytelling device, because it contributes to the reader's suspense. It's harder for us to understand the rationale for withholding information. In our world, more information tends to lessen fear, but that isn't necessarily true in Frodo's situation.
Both Gildor and Frodo suspect that the Black Riders may be Nazgul, and even Pippin suspects that there may be something supernatural about them. However, there are other possibilities. Sauron has other servants, like the Mouth of Sauron, who are simply corrupted men who have not become full wraiths. Men such as this may also have dark powers at their disposal that would produce fear in those they encounter.
Without knowing for certain whether the Riders are wraiths or men, Gildor might give the wrong advice. For example, if he were sure they were Nazgul, Gildor might offer the same advice as Aragorn to build fires at night. The Nazgul are repelled by fire, and they would be drawn to Frodo by senses other than sight even without the campfire. However, if they were only men, that would be exactly the wrong advice, because a campfire would help men to locate them. The best advice that Gildor can give Frodo is to do whatever he can to evade them, because he will definitely not win a direct fight.
In our technology-based world, more information always lessens uncertainty and fear. For example, a modern day Gildor might have told his Frodo counterpart that these riders are using night-vision goggles, and here are some countermeasures you might take. However, in the world of Middle Earth, knowledge does not neccesarily lessen fear; it might even increase fear to the point of paralysis. Knowledge about a problem only lessens fear if it is accompanied by a means for dealing with the problem. In the absence of clear advice on how to deal with a danger, a more complete description of that danger only increases feelings of helplessness. The elves don't fully understand the weapons employed by the enemy, and they don't always know precisely how to counteract it.
(This post was edited by SilentLion on Nov 13 2007, 11:27am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 13 2007, 3:02pm
Post #5 of 19
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There are several levels to this exchange. There is humor with Pippin playing the part of the pesky child full of questions and Frodo the exasperated parent trying to eat his breakfast. Sort of like someone wanting me to answer questions before I’ve had my coffee.
One of the best ways to get secrets from people is to ask them when they're distracted. And nothing distracts a hobbit more than food.
But, Pippin is sharper than he appears. He knows the Black Riders are not ordinary “Big People” and Frodo is trying to avoid telling Pippin too much. How much do you think Pippin actually knew?
Not as much as he'd like.
(And yes, I know “A Conspiracy Unmasked” is coming up but work with me here).
I'd wager Pippin has done some digging in the library at the Great Smial (which he will later greatly expand). And Merry's gotten a few looks at Bilbo's notes and manuscripts. And Sam's been dropping eaves. Pippin is not as clueless as he seems.
Is this still a “hobbit walking party” or are things getting more serious?
Yes.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 13 2007, 4:37pm
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Pippin did not know everything we know.
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Remember that Sam clammed up after Gandalf caught him in Chapter 2, and so apparently did not tell Merry and Pippin the full story of the Ring. And of course even Frodo has not put two and two together regarding the Black Riders, and does not fully comprehend his danger. But Frodo is thinking, and his thinking will lead to a new strategy: leave the paths and strike out across country. This is a good strategy except for one problem: they have no guide, and quickly get lost, as Pippin predicts they will. This begins a pattern we find throughout the book, where the hobbits repeatedly must leave the main road and take an alternate route.
But here's a question: why did the elves leave the hobbits to fend for themselves? This, too, is part of a pattern throughout the book, where Frodo meets new mentors along the way, but the mentors either have no interest in guiding him, or get drawn off into other matters.
Gildor can be excused for several reasons. Frodo does not tell him the whole story. Gildor considers himself an Exile with little interest in the current events of Middle-earth. Gildor does name Frodo an elf-friend, and apparently sends a message to Rivendell about Frodo and the Black Riders. Gildor may also protect Frodo in other, unseen ways, although if so Tolkien never acknowledges such actions.
I suggest that the actions of all the mentors who leave Frodo to fend for himself defy explanation unless those mentors believe in Higher, Unseen Powers who will look out for Frodo when no one else can. Gildor's blessing is not just empty words. If you want to call it magic, it is a spell, but I believe it is also a prayer, and that the prayer is answered. In the end, Frodo is right to leave the path and trust to his luck, and his luck holds, bringing him to Farmer Maggot's doorstep at exactly the right time.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 13 2007, 5:41pm
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I'm not sure Sam "clammed up".
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Merry says that Sam "dried up", in reference to his job as "collector of information" because he "seemed to regard himself as on parole". So I think he communicated to his fellow conspirators the last news that he heard, then stopped collecting. Merry seems to know a fair bit of what Gandalf told Frodo.
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 13 2007, 5:52pm
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Why would Sam tell Merry what Gandalf just caught him hearing, and told him not to reveal? I looked again at "A Conspiracy Unmasked" (and we are jumping the gun a bit here), and although Merry claims he knows what Gandalf said, I don't see any evidence that he does, in fact, know what Gandalf said about Gollum and Mordor and the true nature of the Ring.
And I don't see why Sam would consider himself at liberty to tell Merry much of what he overheard. What Merry and Pippin knew, even before Gandalf returned, was that Frodo planned to leave the Shire at some point, and that Frodo had inherited Bilbo's ring of invisibility. But beyond that it is not at all clear to me what Merry and Pippin really knew, or what Sam had told them.
However, Sam may well have felt at liberty to confirm that Frodo indeed planned to leave the Shire after his birthday, that Sam was going with him, and that Merry and Pippin should make plans if they wanted to join them, because Gandalf had recommended that Frodo take along those who were willing to join him.
Of course even if Sam had told them everything, neither Frodo nor Sam had connected the Black Riders with the Nine Rings, or understood their terrible nature. At this point Sam, Pippin, and Frodo all suspected the Black Riders were after Frodo's ring, but beyond that they were all pretty ignorant.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 13 2007, 6:10pm
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to Nerdanel, perhaps we should indeed table this discussion until next week. You make some interesting points, and I look forward to revisiting them.
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Saelind
Lorien
Nov 14 2007, 12:59am
Post #10 of 19
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Sorry! I did not intend to step on Nerdanels' toes. I was going for the "What did he know and when did he know it" type of question. I probably should have been more specific.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 14 2007, 1:05am
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You had already forewarned us not to stray too far into "A Conspiracy Unmasked", but I did anyway, then thought better of it.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 14 2007, 8:27am
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that doesn't depend on A Conspiracy Unmasked, but rather on The Shadow of the Past. Here's the moment I'm thinking about:
[Sam] walked home under the early stars through Hobbiton and up the Hill, whistling softly and thoughtfully. It was just at this time that Gandalf reappeared after his long absence....
[Frodo] had begun to think that the wizard would never return and had given up all interest in hobbits. But that evening, as Sam was walking home and twilight was fading, there came the once familiar tap on the study window.
This is Sam, still as far as we know just "local colour" like his dad, walking casually home. It's just coincidence that he happens to be walking somewhere near Bag End just as Gandalf arrives. Or is it? Are there really any coincidences in LotR? Did Sam see Gandalf arrive and start his eavesdropping that evening? We'd never guess it on first reading, because we don't know that Sam is taking an interest in Frodo's doings at all (although we have been given an obscure hint - "Sam had more on his mind than gardening").
We don't know exactly what Sam might have heard if he listened that night, but he would have heard something:
"Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf," [Frodo] said. "And then you stopped, because you said that such matters were best left until daylight. Don't you think you had better finish now? You say the ring is dangerous, far more dangerous than I guess. In what way?"
So could Sam have heard enough the night before to have made him decide to communicate with Merry and Pippin early that morning, before he was caught eavesdropping later, "after a late breakfast"? It would certainly explain why Sam got quite so worked up about Frodo's threats if he spilled the beans:
..."if you really care about me, you will keep that dead secret. See? If you don't, if you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill the garden full of grass-snakes." Sam fell on his knees, trembling.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 14 2007, 8:41am
Post #13 of 19
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One thing that I think characterizes Elves and also Maiar is that they tend to be cryptic to the layman.
Very true, and that works on several levels - from the storytelling point of view, it allows for quasi-omniscient beings to exist without having them ruin the suspense by answering all the questions right away! It's a traditional device in myths and fairytales - predictions especially are always obscure.
Story-internally, as you suggest, the Elves are wise enough to know the limits of their knowledge and wisdom, which makes them reluctant to give advice.
I suspect they are also aware of how difficult it is to communicate the subtlety of their own thought to mortals, and so they are extra-cautious not to say anything that might lead mortals into acting on their own crude interpretation of the subtle advice that the Elves were actually trying to give.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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drogo
Lorien
Nov 14 2007, 12:48pm
Post #14 of 19
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Pippin is one who is observant, even if he doesn't always process his observations (especially in the beginning). He is the youngest of the hobbits, so his inquisitiveness can be grating, but it is what gives him the ability to blend in with Ents and the men of Gondor. Here they don't really understand the Black Riders--Tolkien himself doesn't have a clear picture of their power at this point, in many respects--but he senses something "queer" or maybe even "magical" (in the loose hobbit sense) about them.
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 14 2007, 1:35pm
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And as I theorized, I also think Sam would have felt justified telling Merry and Pippin that he and Frodo were planning to leave the Shire, or rather confirming what they already suspected, since Gandalf had said that Frodo should take those who were willing to go with him. But your theory would explain why Merry said he knew much of what Gandalf had told Frodo. (Oops, I'm jumping ahead again.)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 14 2007, 3:57pm
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does that clash with my UUT that the Valar make it possible for Sam to eavesdrop?
He had a good deal to think about. For one thing, there was a lot to do up in the Bag End garden, and he would have a busy day tomorrow, if the weather cleared. The grass was growing fast.
Emphasis added, of course. In the next paragraph: "It was early April and the sky was now clearing after heavy rain."
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 14 2007, 6:05pm
Post #17 of 19
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does that clash with my UUT that the Valar make it possible for Sam to eavesdrop?
As you point out, the sky was already clearing that evening:
It was early April and the sky was now clearing after heavy rain. The sun was down, and a cool pale evening was quietly fading into night. He walked home under the early stars through Hobbiton and up the Hill, whistling softly and thoughtfully.
If it had been raining, maybe Sam wouldn't have ventured out to the inn that evening - and even if he had, he'd have hurried back instead of walking home thoughtfully under the stars. So if the Valar are affecting the weather, they chose to do it in time for a little evening eavesdropping, instead of waiting until morning!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
Nov 14 2007, 7:03pm
Post #18 of 19
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Always keep an eye on the weather!/
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 15 2007, 3:13am
Post #19 of 19
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The text never says Sam reached his house, only that he was walking that way, and heading up the Hill - and then there was a tapping noise on a Bag End window. One could suspect that Sam heard that noise, and went to investigate - and ended up dropping eaves .
And gathering more information to pass along.
I like that UUT!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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