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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
ThomasMonteah's essay on Main page..Astute Amazing


Nov 24 2012, 1:03am

Post #1 of 17 (808 views)
ThomasMonteah's essay on Main page..Astute Amazing Can't Post

Sure. Many. go. Directly.
to message boards & it was only posted earlier today
But Bomby found it Most enlightened essay about the
Movie plot read.
here ever..TORn nav. HOME.

Check it out!!!

He sums. Up. so much. Often based on truly analyzing the SoundTrack
Highest praise for Thomas...give it a read.


Nov 24 2012, 1:04am

Post #2 of 17 (420 views)
It's called "connecting the Dots..." [In reply to] Can't Post


Tol Eressea

Nov 24 2012, 1:06am

Post #3 of 17 (392 views)
If dear Bomby so praises it [In reply to] Can't Post

surely it's a must read.

Too bad it's also very long...

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Nov 24 2012, 1:07am

Post #4 of 17 (387 views)
Yep just read it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Very good read, and a lot of it very likely. BTW absolutely loved this piece of dialogue....

Thorin: ‘But I saw him die over a century ago! How is he alive?’

Gandalf: ‘Much that was once certain is no longer. The world is growing stranger with the seasons. This is not the most concerning omen of our journey, only the most recent. The dead walk abroad, and I must go to Dol Guldur. There is a power at work, a dark power. Necromancy serves a purpose, and one greater than purely to inconvenience you, Thorin.’

(This post was edited by Joe20 on Nov 24 2012, 1:08am)

Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 24 2012, 1:09am

Post #5 of 17 (419 views)
Direct link [In reply to] Can't Post




Nov 24 2012, 1:34am

Post #6 of 17 (352 views)
A very informed analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

I do disagree strongly with his predictions concerning the necromancer, though
Please, PJ, no undead orcs or "flesh avatars"! You can do what you will with condensing the appendices on Durin's Folk, but don't turn this into another zombie flick!

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 24 2012, 1:47am

Post #7 of 17 (371 views)
Although something nags me [In reply to] Can't Post

About the ancient enemy bit. Didn't we think that Gandalf had his sword in the original trailer scene where he was descending the pit which we now know to be the Nazgul "tomb"?


Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 24 2012, 1:48am

Post #8 of 17 (355 views)
Interesting thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I have an alternate explanation for certain scenes in AUJ. How about this scenario?

The company sets out, probably including a montage of travel scenes (The World is Ahead). The action then cuts to Radagast at home at Rhosgobel. He has found/rescued and is healing a hedgehog when the Mirkwood spiders burst in. After defending himself, he realizes that the Necromancer's activity is increasing (An Ancient Enemy), maybe even sees signs of or hears that the Nazgul have been seen around Dol Guldur, which seems impossible, as they were entombed. He then sets out in the bunny-sled to investigate (Radagast the Brown) and/or to get help. The action cuts back to the adventurers setting up camp in the rain, cranky and miserable. Gandalf is worried, either because the company has encountered something strange, or because they are near to the old Kingdom of Angmar and Gandalf has heard/seen something that makes him suspicious. Gandalf, not wanting to take a dozen loud, grumbling dwarves on a quiet reconnaissance mission, leaves them at the camp and goes off by himself to the barrows/tomb of the Witch-King. (The Hill of Sorcery) While investigating, he runs into Radagast, there for the same purpose. They find the empty tombs and the Nazgul knife, and along with what Radagast can tell of the situation in Mirkwood, decide that they must call a Council meeting at Rivendell. Since we have not seen Radagast in any of the White Council shots, perhaps he trusts Gandalf to tell his news as well and returns to Rhosgobel. Gandalf then returns to find the company captured by trolls and delays their demise until sunrise. But Gandalf and Radagast's presence has not gone unnoticed, and one or both of them is being followed (Warg Scouts)...



Tol Eressea

Nov 24 2012, 2:04am

Post #9 of 17 (322 views)
Long means something slightly substantial to read... [In reply to] Can't Post

... while waiting for that vlog, no?

-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.


Nov 24 2012, 2:08am

Post #10 of 17 (311 views)
Silverlode even better Film needs to condence Action.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Your speculation on.
That aspect seems less convoluted!


Nov 24 2012, 2:17am

Post #11 of 17 (313 views)
I originally thought he did [In reply to] Can't Post

But then I went back and re-watched the 2 parts we can be reasonably certain are from the Nazgul crypt (edging down a ramp in Trailer 1 and nearly falling into the pit in Trailer 2) and now I feel certain that he does not have Glamdring on him. Given that I'm basing this assumption off of two very quick shots, this could easily be wrong, but Gandalf generally has Glamdring drawn in situations where he is clearly anticipating some sort of danger (an example being his exploration of Dol Guldur and in Trailer 1).

Plus, the silhouette of the crypt doorway and bottomless pit from the trailers definitely match the external shot and description from the Weta Chronicles book.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Nov 24 2012, 2:25am

Post #12 of 17 (302 views)
I agree with you on this for the most part [In reply to] Can't Post

But the Hill of Sorcery is Dol Guldur, surely? In any case I think that chronologically it will all match up as you say, but I think Radagast may tell of his escape as a flashback to Gandalf when he meets up with him, as opposed to shrinking the geography of film ME even further.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 24 2012, 2:39am

Post #13 of 17 (293 views)
It could be.... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's possible that the track is named for the visuals we will see while Radagast describes or Gandalf flashes back to his expedition to Dol Guldur. The placement in the story seems odd for a scene set in Dol Guldur itself, but perhaps the Necromancer is watching via palantir or some such thing.

We will know in just a little while longer.... Smile



Nov 24 2012, 2:54am

Post #14 of 17 (271 views)
The suspense for this film is killing me! [In reply to] Can't Post

Stupid Australia and their dumb 26th release date...

The Grey Elf
Grey Havens

Nov 24 2012, 4:56am

Post #15 of 17 (226 views)
A Fascinating, Insightful Read [In reply to] Can't Post

Well worth the time. Mr. Monteath certainly knows his Tolkein and a thing or two about the art of storytelling. But one thing he does not address is how the Old Bilbo/Frodo frame will be resolved. He also leaves off the story on quite a dark note. It's not implausible or inaccurate but I do believe it is highly unlikely that TABA will end the Hobbit on a downer. Returning to the Old Bilbo/ Frodo framing story would not only bring everything full circle it would perhaps allow for a summation of hope in the person of Frodo, since we already know his story and that he (and Sam) will succeed in saving ME from Sauron's malice. That's my theory, anyway! Anyone else have any thoughts on how the Hobbit trilogy will wrap up?

Fredeghar Wayfarer

Nov 24 2012, 7:03am

Post #16 of 17 (240 views)
Great read but I'm not sure about these theories [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a lot to think about in that article. Many of those predictions sound plausible. That said, I hope some of them don't come true. If they did, the movies would be drifting even further from the book. I'm not sure how I would feel about Saruman murdering Radagast, an undead Azog, Beorn being taken out of the Battle of Five Armies, or Sauron spending 50 years looking for "Baggins."

I probably wouldn't mind the Barrow-downs if that was added. I was sad we didn't get to see PJ's version of the barrow-wights.

Not sure why the author kept claiming the swords were used at the Battle of Azanulbizar. They were Elvish swords of Gondolin. Why would Dwarves have them at Moria?

The "Hill of Sorcery" music track definitely sounds like Dol Guldur. That's the direct translation. If that's indeed where that track is played, my guess is it's a flashback to Gandalf meeting Thrain in the dungeons.


Nov 24 2012, 10:53am

Post #17 of 17 (189 views)
It's interesting read, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really have to disagree with most points it makes.

Adding in extra challenges aside from the trolls, and now possibly wargs in the journey before the Misty Mountains would just be pointless padding. Even the book has the Company make some elementary mistakes. Having them bumble into the Old Forest or the Barrow-Downs with no reason would just make them seem literally too dumb to live. If we get to see any place elaborated beyond the book in that stretch, it's probably the evil-looking ruins mentioned in the passing that Aragorn explains to be work of the men of Angmar in the FotR. Though the Hill of Sorcery-soundtrack hints more at a flashback to Dol Guldur. If the Nazgűl are added to the storyline, they most likely act as lieutnants of that place. Seeing them on the move would create an enormous plothole concerning Bilbo's frequent use of the Ring.

Making Azog undead would add little to the character. I wouldn't be surprised if his role was limited purely to flashbacks to explain Thorin's backstory. He certainly wouldn't be happy with serving someone like the Goblin King, so having him in a hunting party would make little sense. Bolg is still the most likely candidate for leading the attack to the Mountain, in spite of his extra role in Dol Guldur. I also get the feeling that the article is far too derivative from LotR; it simply makes no sense for goblins to pursue the Company all the way through the perilous Mirkwood. It's wiser to leave them to the background for the second film, to make their sudden reappearance in the third film seem like a shock. Not to mention that making the second film completely free of goblins would be an unexpected change of pace for the general audience.

And I agree with the article that the Necromancer will probably be upgraded to the primary villain in the background, who has his claws in most of the events of the story, including the mobilization of the Goblins, but taking this into account, it would make absolutely no sense to do away with him in the second movie. Also, the Council is a group of secondary characters as interesting they are, and giving a movie a climax without its true protagonists would be an example of poor storytelling. All and all, I find it far more likely that the events of Dol Guldur will be moved ahead in time to the third movie, to most likely take place simultaneously with the Battle of Five Armies, making the two climactic events parallel each other in intercuts, like the Battle of Helm's Deep and the Ents attacking Isengard in TT. This would set the Necromancer as the true evil behind the scenes and have his defeat in Dol Guldur somehow result in the defeat of the goblin army at the Loney Mountain.

Now you may ask, how can Gandalf be in two places at the same time? This is actually a very important reason why I think this narrative makes sense. It has to be a surprise for both Bilbo and the audience that Gandalf will make his appearance at the Lonely Mountain. We can't have him defeating the Necromancer and going: "Now off to save the hobbit". This would eliminate the dramatic tension of his subsequent appearance. There must be real uncertainty as to whether he will show up or not. I believe that Gandalf will be preparing for the attack on Dol Guldur with the White Council when he learns that Smaug is dead, but armies are amassing at the Mountain, and that the Necromancer has made sure that whoever wins will still end up dead. Gandalf must be torn between his duty to the Council and his friendship with Bilbo, ultimately choosing the latter -- for the better, as it'll finally turn out. I also suspect that we don't see a mass battle between great armies in Dol Guldur, but more like an elite facedown against a creature gallery that would certainly appeal to PJ's sensibilities -- wights, werewolves, Nazgűl, oh my. Sauron's abode should contain things more interesting than mere orcs, after all.

(This post was edited by Lightice on Nov 24 2012, 10:54am)


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