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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
trilogy to make bigger deal of the arkenstone than the book?


Nov 20 2012, 12:31am

Post #1 of 21 (1343 views)
trilogy to make bigger deal of the arkenstone than the book? Can't Post

i was thinking of this bit form "song of the lonely mountain"

a fate unknown
the arkenstone
what was stolen
must be returned

in the book we know nothing of the arkenstone til after smaug is killed which presumably wont be happening until the climax of film 2

does this mean there will be more empahisis on it in the trilogy or at least an added hint in AUJ since its in the AUJ song?


Nov 20 2012, 12:40am

Post #2 of 21 (782 views)
short answer: yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Long answer: Yessssss.

Much like Bard the Bowman, the introduction of the Arkenstone at that point in the story works just fine for a book. On film, it might pose some issues. I think that we will see something of the Arkenstone in either AUJ or DOS to show that it is a symbol or heirloom of The King Under the Mountain. The importance of the Arkenstone will be established long before the place it's introduced in the book.

This will make Bilbo's "theft" of it mean that much more to the audience. Now, whether Bilbo will know of its importance to Thorin or not, is yet to be seen. I imagine that in order for him to remain a good guy, he may take it but not know the full ramifications of it... we'll see.


Nov 20 2012, 12:41am

Post #3 of 21 (750 views)
I expect lots of things will have roles earlier on in the film [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether it be in AUJ or not, the Arkenstone, Dale, Esgaroth and Bard will all need to be introduced earlier to make their role more important to the plot. As much as I love the book, the last few chapters intoduced so many new elements that could have been alluded to earlier.

Another thing is the talking ravens. These should be alluded to earlier, rather than in the books where it is mentioned not long before the raven talks.


Nov 20 2012, 1:52am

Post #4 of 21 (683 views)
I recommend a spoiler warning... [In reply to] Can't Post

because some might not want to find out about the lyrics riight now.


Nov 20 2012, 2:31am

Post #5 of 21 (713 views)
The Arkenstone *spoilers* and speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the things that stood out most in the Collider interview with Richard Armitage was the mention that Bilbo is hired specifically to get the Arkenstone:

"But in terms of this story, it does unfold as we go along that we need a hobbit to go in to try and find the Arkenstone."

He also mentions the significance of the stone to Thorin:

"The Arkenstone is certainly something which he covets and craves. And he knows that without that gem, he can never truly be king. So that takes on a real significance, like a talisman that he obsesses over in a similar way to the Ring. But he doesn’t really carry that through the story with him, it’s just something that he’s going towards."

I'm unsure whether to interpret the "never truly be king" to mean in his own mind, or as an actual requirement of kingship. If it is the latter then it leads me to wonder if Thorin's plan is to get back the Stone in order to inspire and command his otherwise reluctant people to take the mountain by force. We know this version of Thorin remains skeptical of Gandalf's plan, but he must have some rational reason to go along with it. If he sees the Arkenstone as another step toward his ultimate goal of defeating Smaug with a great army (which he currently lacks), then it would be worth taking the risk to get it back.

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The Shire

Nov 20 2012, 2:33am

Post #6 of 21 (681 views)
I Hope So.. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Arkenstone needs to be a very big deal. It nearly destroys the relationship between Bilbo and Thorin which has been building for three films at that point. And Makes Thorin feel ultimately betrayed.


Nov 20 2012, 3:32am

Post #7 of 21 (614 views)
One way to show this Cinematically? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mention the Astone early..maybe in BagEnd

then never mention it again..though all their
Trails &Tribulations..

Until Bilbo Burgelizes it..

Then .." BingoMoment?"

Hiding this Goal
then reminding Audiences
In 2014?

Grey Havens

Nov 20 2012, 7:12am

Post #8 of 21 (536 views)
Dredging Up The Past [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess this would mean all the hand-wringing early on about the movies dropping the Arkenstone entirely was pointless and gave Peter Jackson much amusement. I don't suppose we'll hear from those people?



Nov 20 2012, 7:24am

Post #9 of 21 (532 views)
The Scone of Stone... [In reply to] Can't Post


A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Nov 20 2012, 8:06am

Post #10 of 21 (506 views)
Thorin's goal all along was to find the Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

I see no problem emphasising this earlier on in the story.

As long Bilbo finds it the same way as in the book. Wink

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Jago M

Nov 20 2012, 8:47am

Post #11 of 21 (475 views)
An other way [In reply to] Can't Post

Already in the prologue? Instead of starting with the misfortune of the dwarfs when Smaug attacks, they could start with the dwarfs crafting Erebor and finding the very 'heart of the mountain', the Arkenstone.
Thus also giving Smaug an extra motivation to attack the place :)
They could also leave this as a prologue to TABA though.


Nov 20 2012, 10:08am

Post #12 of 21 (442 views)
That's good [In reply to] Can't Post

The book was a little funny when it got to the mountain. The dwarves were like, "we're here! let's collect our 5000 tons of treasure from under the dragon now." They were so unprepared to deal with the dragon that it was comical. If their mission is to nick the arkenstone and worry about the other details later, at least they won't look quite as bone-headed.

Dlanor da Great

Nov 20 2012, 10:27am

Post #13 of 21 (446 views)
I like the idea.. [In reply to] Can't Post

...that thorins plan was to use the burgler to steal the Arkenstone so that Thorin can reclaim his kingship and inspire armies to invade the mountain and take his kingdom back.
That makes more sense then taking 13 Dwarves and a hobbit to their deaths trying to kill a powerful giant Dragon that destroys civilizations. Smaugs death is a lucky result of bilbos slip of the tongue (barrel rider) and his discovering of Smaugs weakness.


Nov 20 2012, 10:47am

Post #14 of 21 (440 views)
Bilbo needs to " Not know it's Signifigance." [In reply to] Can't Post

Its beauty needs to be overwhelming...
yet this needs to be a secret ...

kept from him by the Dwarves..otherwise
He would just HAVE turned it over to Thorin right away..
Being an Honest Burgler.


Nov 20 2012, 11:10am

Post #15 of 21 (415 views)
Yes, I think he is affected by its beauty but..... [In reply to] Can't Post

....after slipping it into his pocket, he keeps it from Thorin even after he knows that there is a desperate search for it. He DOES know what it means to Thorin and that's why he decides to use it as a powerful bargaining chip.

And this is what makes the story so grown-up at the end: it is morally ambivalent and we get to question everyone's motives, not just Thorin's.

Tol Eressea

Nov 20 2012, 11:53am

Post #16 of 21 (403 views)
agreed ShireHorse.... it is a tough one to write for the team I must say hehe // [In reply to] Can't Post


--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--

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Nov 20 2012, 3:00pm

Post #17 of 21 (353 views)
Yes, it is a tough one [In reply to] Can't Post

and I hope the team is up to it. Bilbo has been portrayed as the good bloke throughout, the one who represents us. To what extent do you portray him as doing something that is, perhaps, wrong? If you show a growing friendship between him and Thorin throughout the films (as PJ is implying that he's doing) and then Bilbo apparently makes a poor decision, then one's sympathies will lie with Thorin and you will understand his rage when he finds out that he has been betrayed by someone he thought was a friend.

If you slant the writing the other way and portray Bilbo as not being moved by an initial desire for the Arkenstone but as trying to resolve a dangerous situation, then he remains the "good bloke" and Thorin is portrayed as being bad-tempered and stubborn.

I hope that the team walks a fine line between the two because Tolkien is quite specific that Bilbo, at first, takes the stone for himself because he cannot resist its lure. Just because we like him, it shouldn't stop the writers from showing that he is wrong.

In fact, I think he takes two disastrous missteps: it is Bilbo who provokes Smaug so that he rages off to destroy Laketown. And it is Bilbo's misconceived idea to take the Arkenstone and give it to Bard that ramps up the confrontation. His action resolves nothing; it just makes things worse.


Nov 20 2012, 5:00pm

Post #18 of 21 (325 views)
Bilbo's use of the Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

would have been effective had Dain not arrived when he did. He did nothing wrong, since Thorin told Bilbo he could choose his share of the reward, and didn't say "not including the Arkenstone". Bilbo just gave Bard his share of the loot.

My theory, and how I think it will play in the film, is Thorin deliberately doesn't tell Bilbo about the Arkenstone. Firstly, he doesn't trust Bilbo, and secondly, he doesn't want Gandalf to know he plans to use it to raise an army.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Nov 20 2012, 8:41pm

Post #19 of 21 (266 views)
From ..the Book. [In reply to] Can't Post

".it took all the light and. Changed it into ten thousand sparks of light..
Suddendly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment.
His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem;
But he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put in his pocket.

"I'm a burglar indeed" thought he. " But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it---- sometime.
....all the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it."

SOOO Bomby stands by my theory
that Bilbo knows.
Nothing about the Arkenstone
because Thorin&The Company.
Kept it.. a secret from him..
..the whole Journey.
"When in doubt?
READ...your Book"

Bomby&(Goldberry too!)


Nov 21 2012, 1:59am

Post #20 of 21 (228 views)
Yes, but as the Gaffer said... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


Nov 21 2012, 8:54am

Post #21 of 21 (287 views)
What you know offically [In reply to] Can't Post

and what you feel intuitively are often not the same.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


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