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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Answering without explaining

sador
Valinor


Nov 22 2012, 3:48pm


Views: 718
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Answering without explaining [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel tells the hobbits that it doesn't make sense to use the same word for both. Elves don't really practice magic in our traditional sense of casting spells. Instead, they put their love into all they make, and that passion has the byproduct of conferring magical properties on things like ropes and cloaks. She dismisses bad magic as "the deceits of the Enemy."


Except that this seems to contradict what we know from The Hobbit and The Silmarillion. Both Luthien and Finrod (at least) used magic as a kind of power. And just how are the bewildering mazes of Melian difference from "the deceits of the Enemy"?
Also, both Elrond and Galadriel herself use magic to defend their realms, and in effect seal the border. If it isn't aggresive, it's okay? Such as Bombadil's?
In short, I'm not sure I buy her answer. I don't know what better answer can I give.

On another note - this is one of the changes Jackson made to the movie which I didn't like, but most people mind less than others: in the books, Theoden is a genuinely old man; Wormtongue accuses Gandalf of bewitching him, and with some justification; but in Helm's Deep, Theoden himself acknowledges that he is really old, for all Gandalf's arts. Only in Unfinished taels, Tolkien reports a rumor that Wormtongue was subtly poisoning the King, but nothing more.
In the movies - we have Saruman actively possessing the quite middle-aged king, and Gandalf just returning him to his natural state.
Consider this as a protest.


In Reply To

I can't imagine it existing without Elrond and Cirdan and a few other celebrities.

Legolas? Tauriel? Evil


In Reply To
I'm looking forward to it--it could be very cool. The lack of detail from Tolkien on the subject just fires up the imagination, making you want to know more.


Okay. I'm a bit concerned - I don't quite "trust Peter" enough. But It's not as if I care as about the coming movies as much as our friend on the Hobbit Movie board do. I expect to enjoy it - no more, no less.


In Reply To
I find it hard to understand why the LOTR Elrond would have ever visited Dale. True, he mentions at the Council of Elrond that he had been a traveler once, but I have trouble picturing him going all the way to Dale--what for? To mail post cards?


It's actually even worse - apparently, Dale wasn't built before Thror came to the Mountain, and according to The Tale of Years, Celebrian was abducted long before that. It seems very unlikely that Elrond would have crossed the Misty Mountains after that - not until the battle of Azanulbizar, when the orcs of the Mountains were routed. So no, I don't think that Elrond ever was in Dale - at least not the LotR Elrond.


In Reply To

I think it sets up the later, stronger mistrust between Thingol and the dwarves.

Surely you've meant the Elvenking.


In Reply To
And when you think of Thingol and Doriath and what happened there, how likely is it that faraway Thranduil would know what happened?


Elves have a wonderful way of knowing things. And I'm not sure what was the relationship between Beleriand and Mirkwood in Tolkien's mind at the time he wrote this.


In Reply To

Did they also mention that the Sons of Feanor dealt the real deathblow to Doriath?

Those refugees went to the west, not east.


In Reply To

Was Celebrimbor blamed as a result since guilt seems to be passed on from father to son?

Celebrimbor repudiated his father in Nargothrond already. But yes, the question of what exactly happened with Celebrimbor is an unclear one: Was he plagued by guilt for the crimes of his family? Was he shunned by other elves? Did he take an alias, or leave society for some time? Where did he become a friend of dwarves? What did he think of Men?


In Reply To
Or maybe Balin was addicted to pipe-weed, and Bilbo was his drug dealer, which would explain his gold buttons. The dragon gold story was a cover for his criminal enterprise. He only appeared to "disappear" when the dwarves were hallucinating.


Ataahua, have you read this?


In Reply To
It would be similar to spiders: why do they talk in The Hobbit, but Shelob never speaks a word, not even in cursing Sam or saying "ouch!"


I find her all the more terrifying for being silent. Don't you?








"As all things come to an end, even this story..."

Here we read of Bilbo, who is “quiet and drowsy”, that “every now and again he would open one eye” and listen to Gandalf’s tale. Is Tolkien deliberately echoing this passage in LOTR when he writes, “At that Bilbo opened an eye, almost as if he had heard … ‘You see, I am getting so sleepy’, he said.”?
- N.E. Brigand



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Return Journey!

Subject User Time
The Last Stage, part IV - Politics and Property sador Send a private message to sador Nov 18 2012, 4:44pm
    Thoughts Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Nov 18 2012, 9:13pm
        I'm not so sure sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 8:43am
            For the most part, I agree... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Nov 20 2012, 1:02pm
    Tales and terminology FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 18 2012, 9:40pm
        ''wizard' as a general term? sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 9:32am
            Hope you don't mind.... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 20 2012, 11:07am
                Not at all, but also yes sador Send a private message to sador Nov 20 2012, 2:21pm
                    His arm has grown long CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Nov 20 2012, 2:50pm
                    *embarrassed* FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Nov 21 2012, 8:45am
    The magic of politics CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Nov 20 2012, 12:58pm
        Answering without explaining sador Send a private message to sador Nov 22 2012, 3:48pm

 
 
 

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