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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The White Council in The Hobbit book

SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 3:29pm

Post #1 of 16 (884 views)
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The White Council in The Hobbit book Can't Post

Hello all,

Is the White Council even mentioned in The Hobbit book?

Or hinted at?

Thx...


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 3:34pm

Post #2 of 16 (468 views)
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Yes, it's mentioned [In reply to] Can't Post

That Gandalf was away at a great council of white wizards - or something to that effect. He mentions driving out the Necromancer from Mirkwood. But that's it.

There are more scattered notes and references to it in the LOTR appendices, and a few references in Unfinished Tales, I believe.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


macfalk
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 3:35pm

Post #3 of 16 (430 views)
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Yep, Radagast is also mentioned, by both Beorn and Gandy // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 3:36pm

Post #4 of 16 (432 views)
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What do they say? I lost my book :-( [In reply to] Can't Post

 


macfalk
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 3:39pm

Post #5 of 16 (445 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

From memory, Gandalf asks Beorn if he knows "my cousin Radagast" who lives around here. I think Beorn says something like "I know him, he is a decent man for a wizard" or the like.

Sorry for not having the direct quotes, my TH edition is in Swedish...



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 15 2012, 3:47pm

Post #6 of 16 (428 views)
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Yes, but not referred to as the White Council... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo does not discover what Gandalf had been up to between his leaving the company at Mirkwood and Bilbo's finding him in the camp of the Men and Elves until the two reach Rivendell on the journey back to Hobbiton.

In the house of Elrond, Bilbo listened as Gandalf told the story to the Elf-lord:


Quote

It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.

"Ere long now," Gandalf was saying, "The Forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!"

"It would be well indeed," said Elrond; "but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after."



So, either Bilbo (who was half-asleep) misheard some key points, or Gandalf deliberately talked around some parts of his tale to avoid letting the hobbit know too much about Council business. The literal truth, of course, is that Tolkien had not fully developed the White Council in his own mind, and wouldn't do so until he wrote The Lord of the Rings.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 3:52pm

Post #7 of 16 (385 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks - but why does he need to tell Elrond that he has been to such a council, when Elrond was on the Council?!


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 3:52pm

Post #8 of 16 (385 views)
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Thx :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 3:55pm

Post #9 of 16 (421 views)
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Also didn't Galadriel throw down Dol Goldur after Sauron was defeated? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 15 2012, 3:58pm

Post #10 of 16 (376 views)
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That may be because of Bilbo's presence... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thanks - but why does he need to tell Elrond that he has been to such a council, when Elrond was on the Council?!



I can only guess that either Gandalf was telling Elrond the story as if it were news so that Bilbo would not know of the Half-elf's involvement or because Elrond was not actually at the assault (he may have remained in Rivendell as a reserve, in case the attack went wrong).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 15 2012, 4:01pm

Post #11 of 16 (398 views)
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We don't know if Tolkien had Galadriel present at the attack on Dol Guldur... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien was very vague about exactly what happened and precisely who was present. Perhaps, though, the Council wanted to keep the fortress intact so that it could be thoroughly investigated.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 15 2012, 4:10pm

Post #12 of 16 (386 views)
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So... [In reply to] Can't Post

So does this mean the Necromancer was driven out of Dol Goldur DURING The Hobbit, but that the walls Dol Goldur (the fortress itself ) was 'thrown down' by Galadriel after the events of Return Of The King?


dormouse
Half-elven


Nov 15 2012, 4:13pm

Post #13 of 16 (349 views)
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He doesn't specifically tell Elrond that there was a Council... [In reply to] Can't Post

... he talks to him about it and Bilbo overhears.

When Gandalf and Bilbo arrive at Rivendell on the homeward journey, the elves are 'eager to hear the tale of their adventures'. Gandalf talks - we're not told what he says. Just that Bilbo, half asleep and listening, discovers from Gandalf's words what Gandalf was doing when he wasn't with the dwarves. 'It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.'

Now, that could mean that Elrond didn't know about the Council and Dol Guldur, and Gandalf was telling him about it what happened...

It could equally mean that they were talking over events they both had a hand in. The text isn't specific enough to say one way or the other, both meanings are possible.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2012, 4:34pm

Post #14 of 16 (334 views)
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At the end of the Third Age [In reply to] Can't Post

After the final defeat of Sauron, Galadriel did go to Dol Guldor and "threw down it's walls and laid bare it's pits."

Many people, myself included, think it's likely this imagery will be used in the climax of the Dol Guldor subplot in the films since it wasn't in the LOTR films.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Nov 15 2012, 4:38pm

Post #15 of 16 (351 views)
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Precisely... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So does this mean the Necromancer was driven out of Dol Goldur DURING The Hobbit, but that the walls Dol Goldur (the fortress itself ) was 'thrown down' by Galadriel after the events of Return Of The King?



That is exactly right. Galadriel did not throw down the walls of Dol Guldur until the War of the North during the events of LotR. Peter Jackson, though, might have a different take on the matter.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 15 2012, 4:38pm)


SauonWasHere
The Shire

Nov 16 2012, 8:18am

Post #16 of 16 (223 views)
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Thanks all. [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome.

Galadriel was doing some spring cleaning really!

 
 

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