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Elthir
Lorien
Nov 12 2012, 12:42pm
Views: 116
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I would only add that we must not confuse (not that you are) external inspirations with the scenario Tolkien ultimately landed on here.
Tolkien explicitly notes (The Hobbit, third edition) that Orc is not an English word, and that it was a word used by Hobbits at the time of the story. That makes it a Westron word I would say, and thus it was in use very many years before even Old English arose as a language in the Primary World. Tolkien will even refer to 'Orc' as a Common Speech word in his advice to translators. Some might think that the Common Speech is English but it is not, as that would not make sense in the fictional scenario Tolkien was trying to illustrate.
The reason to blather about this is this: if we take both orc and goblin as English translations (like hobbit and halfling) then one could more easily claim that there is a distinction -- another popular one being that 'goblin' represents a word used by hobbits, while orc represents a word used by other folk. I must disagree with that as well.
So although the external inspiration (or source) is Old English, the ultimate choice by Tolkien was that it must have been a Westron word in Frodo's day, and possibly survived down the ages into Old English, meaning 'demon' basically, but in any case the word became fairly unknown to speakers of Modern English until the early 1950s.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 12 2012, 12:48pm)
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Subject
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User
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Time
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Goblin/Orc connection?
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YaznegSouth40
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Nov 9 2012, 8:42pm
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We don't know for certain I don't think.
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Lacrimae Rerum
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Nov 9 2012, 8:48pm
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Tolkien used the term interchangeably
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sinister71
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Nov 9 2012, 10:09pm
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yeah he used them interchangeably earlier on, however I'm pretty (but not 100%) that by the LOTR he referred to goblins as being a bit different to Orcs
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Xanaseb
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Nov 10 2012, 12:02am
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Goblin/Orc Distinguished
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chrism628
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Nov 9 2012, 10:21pm
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Orc domination
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YaznegSouth40
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Nov 9 2012, 10:35pm
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However....
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YaznegSouth40
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Nov 9 2012, 10:38pm
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I'm excited too
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sinister71
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Nov 10 2012, 3:48am
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In the movie, Gandalf will assure Bilbo (spoilers)
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burgahobbit
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Nov 9 2012, 10:33pm
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Well, here's the thing:
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Lightice
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Nov 10 2012, 12:13am
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Music to my ears
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Elthir
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Nov 10 2012, 4:49am
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Orc is just another word for goblin
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Nov 10 2012, 3:28am
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My personal almost biological solution
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Nov 10 2012, 6:03pm
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But there were no "goblins" referenced in the LOTR films
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Nov 10 2012, 6:56pm
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Not in every translation
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
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Nov 10 2012, 7:02pm
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It seems in PJ's films, all Goblins are Orcs, but not all Orcs are Goblins...
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Captain Salt
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Nov 10 2012, 7:10pm
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The Misty Mountains ones work best for me
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Nov 10 2012, 7:12pm
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Oh but there is
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ForestPark
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Nov 10 2012, 11:29pm
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Goblin-men
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GothmogTheBalrog
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Nov 11 2012, 2:50am
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There is an old saying..
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ForestPark
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Nov 11 2012, 3:43am
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LOL///
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Bombadil
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Nov 11 2012, 1:00pm
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No actually he says "goblins".
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Tim
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Nov 11 2012, 3:43am
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You speak that with which I agree
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Elthir
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Nov 11 2012, 2:53pm
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I think the terms are interchangeable
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totoro
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Nov 11 2012, 7:02pm
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They are interchangeable
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Shelob'sAppetite
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Nov 11 2012, 7:32pm
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"Orc" of course being
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GothmogTheBalrog
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Nov 12 2012, 4:40am
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That's true
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Elthir
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Nov 12 2012, 12:42pm
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Tolkien's note to the third edition Hobbit
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Elthir
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Nov 11 2012, 10:39pm
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by the way...
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Elthir
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Nov 11 2012, 10:57pm
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Film canon
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Elthir
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Nov 11 2012, 1:24am
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