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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Is there a scene you would change?
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Nov 4 2012, 11:05am

Post #26 of 49 (544 views)
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The Witch King would not knock Gandalf off his horse [In reply to] Can't Post

In general the Gandalf in the film is less powerful and wise than the one in the book. I suspect this was done so that Aragorn's role cold be emphasized more, but it annoys me. And this is the worst moment. There's no logic to Gandalf losing his staff at this point, not to mention his dignity. I don't see why this decision was made.

In the book Gandalf tells Denethor that he's not sure whether he could defeat the Witch King, and in the scene where Gandalf defies the Witch King at the gate, it's left in doubt as to which one would have won in direct combat. But my money would be on Gandalf. After all, he did hold off all nine Black Riders at Weathertop for a whole night. That's one tough wizard!


TheBladeGlowsBlue
Rivendell


Nov 4 2012, 11:25am

Post #27 of 49 (556 views)
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I would also omit the scene at the [In reply to] Can't Post

Battle of Helm's Deep, where the whole mood was ruined as the orc army approached, the lights from their torches twinkling in the distance, and PJ thinks it would be a jolly idea for Gimli to be jumping up and down trying to see over the parapet.

That was a complete mood killer, and not that funny either.

Crazy

Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 4 2012, 4:06pm

Post #28 of 49 (541 views)
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Worse than that, IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

Is when Gandalf physically berates Pippin for kindly offering his service to Denethor. The exact opposite ethic of the Gandalf in the books, who praises Pippin for acting nobly. This scenes was, to me, far worse than the changes to Faramir, or the Frodo "go home" scene.

What, exactly, is the purpose of having Gandalf be such an a$$?


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Nov 4 2012, 4:51pm

Post #29 of 49 (589 views)
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My theory on Gandalf's personality change as the White [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the filmmakers believed the audience wouldn't get the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White unless they created a huge contrast between the two. In the book, Gandalf has white hair from the start and dresses quite neatly. Silver scarf, blue hat, etc. Tolkien's pictures of him show him wearing gloves as well (with fingers). I think of him as quite a neat dresser. The novel makes it fairly clear that the Elves at Lothlorien cloth him in white--presumably in clothes the lady Elves make themselves, as they made the cloaks given to the Fellowship. I have always assumed that the Elves supply most of Gandalf's needs, including his clothes (which would resist stains and so on in the "magical" Elvish fashion). The main difference between G the Grey and G the White is that the latter glows brightly from within when he's doing anything magical/powerful. Otherwise he's pretty much the same guy physically. He has enhanced powers, but they don't show, apart from the glowing.

Well, that clearly wasn't enough of a contrast, so the filmmakers made G the Grey gray-haired and messy-looking. Then G the White got white (and clean) hair and neat clothes, etc.

And the filmmakers gave the two different personalities as well. In interviews Ian kept mentioning how G the Grey is a likeable old duffer and G the White is a samurai/leader type who was less fun to play. Presumably his snappishness with Pippin and his head-whacking of Denethor and all such moments are part of that really different characterization. In contrast, in the book, Gandalf's personality doesn't change that much when he returns as the White. He's a bit more of a mysterious, floaty being at times, but he's still sarcastic and wise and basically just and kind.

I do wish the filmmakers had stuck to having Gandalf be consistent throughout the film and trusted to people to understand that he does change somewhat when he dies, but he isn't hugely different when he comes back. I noticed one bit of publicity early on that promised that Gandalf would be in THE HOBBIT more than he was in LOTR. Maybe the filmmakers originally didn't think that kids and young adults wouldn't be interested in an old guy as a really major character, but they obviously were mistaken. Even in his changed form in the films, he's still a pretty endearing and admirable character, and he became very popular.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 4 2012, 6:30pm

Post #30 of 49 (526 views)
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IMO, whenever PJ and company questioned the strength and appeal of the source material [In reply to] Can't Post

They turned out to be rather mistaken.

One would think that year after year of incredible book sales would have made it clear that Tolkien got a lot of things right. Smile


imin
Valinor


Nov 4 2012, 7:27pm

Post #31 of 49 (510 views)
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Oh well its happened now and the films werent that bad :P [In reply to] Can't Post

Live and learn they say - hopefully that will be the case here with PJ and co, or face the wrath of purists everywhere, lol.


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell

Nov 4 2012, 8:54pm

Post #32 of 49 (501 views)
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I know you don't like much of PJ's version of LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

But would you say that the idea that there should be more of Arwen, and a whole storyline for her, was "rather mistaken"?

I would personally say that the whole Arwen/Aragorn story, including Aragorn being initially very reluctant about his kingship and following through eventually to Arwen's decision to stay in Middle Earth, leading to the reforging of Narsil, is the one bit of plot where I out-and-out prefer the film version. But I wouldn't expect everyone to agree Wink

(And I can obviously see that including Arwen in the books would have been pretty much out of the question considering she's so far away from the action and main characters)

Sorry for off-topicness Angelic


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 4 2012, 9:00pm

Post #33 of 49 (508 views)
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I thought the Arwen-Aragorn storyline was well done [In reply to] Can't Post

But the best parts of it were taken directly from the LOTR appendices, which is pure Tolkien (and a part of the story). I also would have liked for Tolkien to include those bits in the main body of the text, though I understand his decision to keep the focus on the hobbits.

The Aragorn-Arwen storyline doesn't work when they fiddled with it to connect with the Ring storyline (Arwen's fate tied to the Ring), and when it was grafted onto odd expanded bits of Aragorn's story (the kiss that becomes a horse's, etc).

There were few moments where PJ's invented material did feel like Tolkien, but they were few and far between, IMO. Theodred's funeral is one of the exceptions, which was an invention, but was pure Tolkien.


TheBladeGlowsBlue
Rivendell


Nov 4 2012, 11:07pm

Post #34 of 49 (506 views)
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Regarding Theodred... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the funeral scene was unnecessary and over done - we were supposed to feel sadness for a character we hadn't even seen doing anything? A shot of him in his sick bed and wounded on the battlefield (EE only as I recall) left me feeling empty... the whole storyline felt (to me) tacked onto the movie as an afterthought, as if PJ had said, "hang on, let's stick a funeral into the movies and get some tears happening!"

Unsure

Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 4 2012, 11:31pm

Post #35 of 49 (494 views)
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One does not need to feel emotional at every turn in the story [In reply to] Can't Post

It was visually glorious, fleshed out the culture of the Rohirrim (and made them feel like more than just Ren Fair reenactors), and laid the foundation for Theoden's general pessimism (which I thought was overdone, but that's where the filmmakers took his character...)

The funeral scene was not meant to pull on the audience's heartstrings, as they knew nothing about Theodred. It simply made Middle Earth feel more real, and authentic.

A great scene. Nice to have a sequence that isn't so explicitly tied to adding another brick to someone's character arc.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Nov 4 2012, 11:31pm)


grinman
Rivendell


Nov 4 2012, 11:39pm

Post #36 of 49 (476 views)
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YES! [In reply to] Can't Post

Theodred's funeral scene was one of my favorite EE scenes of the entire trilogy. For all the reasons you mentioned... mainly depth. It added a layer of cultural depth.

Another complaint i've heard is that Eowyn's not a good singer. I'm not sure that was a prerequisite for the ceremony of your cousin's funeral. They didn't hold auditions, i'd imagine...

Beautiful and haunting scene.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 4 2012, 11:48pm

Post #37 of 49 (507 views)
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Agreed, of course! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to mention, Eowyn's dirge seems to be modeled on a much more ancient mode of song than most modern audiences are comfortable with. To me, it gave the strong impression of something old and forgotten, which really helped sell that part of the story for me as authentically Middle Earth. The subsequent scene by Thedred's mound between Gandalf and Theoden was also wonderful.


grinman
Rivendell


Nov 5 2012, 2:54pm

Post #38 of 49 (508 views)
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A minor scene.. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a few things I would change, given the opportunity. For me, when I watched FOTR in the theater for the first time, as the hobbits entered Bree there was a crane shot where the camera zoomed up and over the gate. I fully expected to see a shadowy figure slip over the gate to follow after the hobbits. In fact, the first few times I saw the film, I kept looking for it... thinking maybe I'd missed it. It was a completely missed opportunity. The camera movement was there, the small beat of a scene was there, there's no reason why it shouldn't have been included. It would have added more mystery to Strider's appearance in the inn and made him just a tad more enigmatic.. at first.

Oh, and also, not a particular scene "change", but an addition: I would have somehow added a small scene of Denethor using the Palantir. It would have made a world of difference explaining his descent into madness. Instead, he just came off as a madman.


Sam20
Lorien

Nov 5 2012, 5:40pm

Post #39 of 49 (481 views)
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Scenes I would change. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well there are many scenes I would like to change but obviosuly that doesn't mean I would be able to find the right people for doing them, if they are doable at all...

To name two scenes that came to my mind right now:

1. The Path Of The Dead scenes. I dislike much this moment in the ROTK adaptation. Where are all the Dłnedain? What's the point of this avalanche of skulls? Perhaps I would remove the sickly green glow of the spirits as well.

2. The Frodo that sends away Sam moment. It's not in the book, it's pure invention of the writters of the script... I just don't think that's necessery. I can't imagine sending Sam away to remain with his frend Gollum... That's almost ridiculous.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 5 2012, 6:09pm

Post #40 of 49 (536 views)
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Not "almost ridiculous" [In reply to] Can't Post

Completely ridiculous. Smile

Doesn't even work in the context of the script, nevermind the book.


TheBladeGlowsBlue
Rivendell


Nov 7 2012, 1:44pm

Post #41 of 49 (446 views)
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Sadly I have to disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post

It wasn't a part of Tolkien's mythology, and neither did it follow any kind of plot, imagined or otherwise, by PJ... it quite simply stuck out like the proverbial sore thumb.

As did many scenes, already described on these and many other pages.

The funeral scene was lifeless (no pun intended) and had no emotional connection to the audience, neither general or Tolkienist... it was quite simply, another PJ indulgence, and sat quite uncomfortably atop a pile of equally unpalatable scenes.

Not to say that (with a squint of the eyes at certain scenes) I didn't find the the movies moving and superlative!

Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im


Sam20
Lorien

Nov 7 2012, 5:16pm

Post #42 of 49 (438 views)
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LOTR scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

@Shelob'sAppetite I was trying to being polite in my comment so I went for ''almost'' which seemed to me moderate, I did not intended to offend anyone having a liking for this scene. But thanks fur supporting this view and I think that ''completely'' ridiculous described it very well too.Smile


(This post was edited by sam90 on Nov 7 2012, 5:19pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 7 2012, 9:29pm

Post #43 of 49 (443 views)
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I disliked about 85% of the films [In reply to] Can't Post

But the funeral scene is one of the few that felt authentically Tolkienian, even if the scene was not in the book.

It felt almost as if the Sutton Hoo burial site came back to life.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Nov 7 2012, 9:30pm)


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 8 2012, 6:36am

Post #44 of 49 (417 views)
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Indulgence in WHAT exactly? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand an indulgence in digital effects or action, but a funeral scene? What kind of indulgence is that?


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 8 2012, 6:41am

Post #45 of 49 (425 views)
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I disagree...it does work in context of the script [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum's trickery has to pay off in some way or else he's just an empty threat the entire time, and the filmmakers really play up the paranoia aspect of Frodo's attachment to the Ring. Gollum plays off that as a way to create a gap in the Sam/Frodo bond. Honestly, I don't see why people overreact about this. It's only really relevant that Sam and Frodo end up going into Mordor together. If they end up in the same place (literally and figuratively), what's the big deal with a bump in the road to that destination?


MintoLabingi
Registered User


Nov 10 2012, 1:04pm

Post #46 of 49 (455 views)
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The Mouth of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like they should've put the Mouth of Sauron in the theatrical because I feel like it makes no sense how Aragorn and others ride up to the Black Gate and says, "Let the lord of the Black Land come forth. And justice be done upon him!" and then an army of orcs marches forth in response. I also didn't really like the fact that the Eye was like a spotlight. There is one scene where it shows the Eye looking around and honestly, with the light, it looks like a game show spotlight.


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 10 2012, 8:11pm

Post #47 of 49 (402 views)
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That's exactly why they removed it from the theatrical version [In reply to] Can't Post

They recognized the weak points of the scene and didn't put it in.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 11 2012, 2:19am

Post #48 of 49 (396 views)
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Which makes you wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

Why it made the cut for the EE?


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 11 2012, 7:08pm

Post #49 of 49 (470 views)
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I think Peter wanted to put everything in just for fun [In reply to] Can't Post

Several times throughout the commentaries, he, Philippa, and Fran comment on the things they would fix or mistakes they made. I think he even mentions that Bilbo's "Concerning Hobbits" narration was too much after the prologue, but it was fun to add anyway. Same for the Witch-king scene: Fran says something along the lines of "There's something strange about a character who shows up, threatens to do something, and then doesn't do it." When it comes to Faramir, also, they freely admit that there are probably things they'd do differently with his character if they had more time during the production. But they put the things in anyway either because they had no alternative (Faramir) or it's simply fun to include them. Shooting all three films at once had many benefits, but the most negative one was the lack of time to refine creative decisions.

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