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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens
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Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 8:05am

Post #76 of 77 (369 views)
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You may hero-worship Gandalf, but it's not consistent with Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.


If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.


Quote
3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?


Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides).


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As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons,


I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one.


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but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.


If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword.


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He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed.


Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster.


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his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."


Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man.


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He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin.


If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing).

There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic?

That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:51am

Post #77 of 77 (435 views)
Shortcut
Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not basing my quotes on any Dungeons and Dragons manual. You are simply pretending that whole scenes in the novels did not happen, because you preffer Gandalf as a more limited creature than he actually is.

Are you saying that he DIDN'T kill those goblins with a blast? That the book is wrong? I didn't say he was without limitation. It is likely that such a forceful display was taxing and required a little time and breathing space for him to repeat. I did read The Simlarillion. You will recall such things as Sauron defying the Lightning of The Valar as he stood atop the Numenorean Temple, ere it was cast into the sea.

Aragorn's dealing with five (not Nine) Nazgul is a much questioned case. Also, they had achieved the infection of Frodo, and were likely already greatly weakened when Aragorn encountered them. . . because mere days before they were locked in an 8 to 12 hour battle with one of the mightier of The Istari!

There is more than indication, there is explicit commentary. To Gimli, Aragorn (who is wielding the reforged Narsil as Anduril!) and Legolas, The Wizard himself says, "No blame done to you, no harm done to me. Indeed, none of you has ANY weapon that could hurt me." Also, the weapons of The High Elves were very magical, Glorfindel was fated etc.

It is not clear that they are stronger. They are a little taller, but the fact that they do the digging doesn't mean they are stronger. Tolkien speaks of Gandalf ocassionally displaying greater than human strength. You are desperate to lessen him, but your arguments aren't well based in what appears in the books.

As to invisibility, when the flash was done, no one saw The Wizard. His powers are not spelled out, but the Ring is not made remarkable just because it can make you invisible. Lesser Rings could have that power. Also, did you NOT read the part where I said that the likes of Sauron might well have been able to detect a person who might pass unseen to some lesser creatures (like orc rabble)? And the rest of your arguments are strawmen. I said, as did the book, that The Wizard could blast a few orcs away in a pinch. That does not equate to being able to blow up entire buildings, or shoot fireballs out of your eyes to consume giant tree people, one after another. Also, Gandalf was more skilled with fire enchantments than Saruman.

In Reply To

In Reply To
1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.


If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.


Quote
3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?


Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides).


Quote
As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons,


I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one.


Quote
but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.


If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword.


Quote
He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed.


Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster.


Quote
his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."


Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man.


Quote
He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin.


If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing).

There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic?

That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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