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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:51am


Views: 371
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Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not basing my quotes on any Dungeons and Dragons manual. You are simply pretending that whole scenes in the novels did not happen, because you preffer Gandalf as a more limited creature than he actually is.

Are you saying that he DIDN'T kill those goblins with a blast? That the book is wrong? I didn't say he was without limitation. It is likely that such a forceful display was taxing and required a little time and breathing space for him to repeat. I did read The Simlarillion. You will recall such things as Sauron defying the Lightning of The Valar as he stood atop the Numenorean Temple, ere it was cast into the sea.

Aragorn's dealing with five (not Nine) Nazgul is a much questioned case. Also, they had achieved the infection of Frodo, and were likely already greatly weakened when Aragorn encountered them. . . because mere days before they were locked in an 8 to 12 hour battle with one of the mightier of The Istari!

There is more than indication, there is explicit commentary. To Gimli, Aragorn (who is wielding the reforged Narsil as Anduril!) and Legolas, The Wizard himself says, "No blame done to you, no harm done to me. Indeed, none of you has ANY weapon that could hurt me." Also, the weapons of The High Elves were very magical, Glorfindel was fated etc.

It is not clear that they are stronger. They are a little taller, but the fact that they do the digging doesn't mean they are stronger. Tolkien speaks of Gandalf ocassionally displaying greater than human strength. You are desperate to lessen him, but your arguments aren't well based in what appears in the books.

As to invisibility, when the flash was done, no one saw The Wizard. His powers are not spelled out, but the Ring is not made remarkable just because it can make you invisible. Lesser Rings could have that power. Also, did you NOT read the part where I said that the likes of Sauron might well have been able to detect a person who might pass unseen to some lesser creatures (like orc rabble)? And the rest of your arguments are strawmen. I said, as did the book, that The Wizard could blast a few orcs away in a pinch. That does not equate to being able to blow up entire buildings, or shoot fireballs out of your eyes to consume giant tree people, one after another. Also, Gandalf was more skilled with fire enchantments than Saruman.

In Reply To

In Reply To
1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.


If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.


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3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?


Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides).


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As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons,


I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one.


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but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.


If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword.


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He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed.


Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster.


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his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."


Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man.


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He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin.


If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing).

There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic?

That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Subject User Time
I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 1:57am
    If he is not with the dwarves Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 2:27am
    Thorin suspects him of eating their food dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 26 2012, 4:12am
        So the rumors say Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 26 2012, 4:32am
    Worry not. Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 5:45am
        Er, those photos Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 26 2012, 5:55am
        'Tis not the cave DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:06am
        more proof titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 7:51am
            It's an eagle toy, from Rivendell :-) / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:53am
            This is the picture I was talking about. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 9:15pm
                The tree is at the front of the cave though, Bilbo could be in the back Carne Send a private message to Carne Sep 26 2012, 9:27pm
                Although we can only see four of the party in that shot in total. Lacrimae Rerum Send a private message to Lacrimae Rerum Sep 26 2012, 10:08pm
        I was thinking about this shot too, Milknut, but I keep wondering if this is in the cave shot AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 8:58pm
    Some element of change DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:07am
        Why? Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 7:52am
            Because they're making the films, and not us ;-) DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 7:54am
                Maybe that was all part of an elaborate dream sequence! Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 7:55am
                    lighting in the fight scene titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 8:08am
                        What are you saying? Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 8:10am
                            yes- that it's Bilbo's heroics before the abduction titanium_hobbit Send a private message to titanium_hobbit Sep 26 2012, 10:10am
                                I think Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 26 2012, 10:21am
                                    Impossible Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 26 2012, 10:34am
                                    What heroics? dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 26 2012, 12:18pm
                        Might not be moonlight? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 26 2012, 8:12am
            That is exactly why it is a concern. Because it is a great scene which doesn't need AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 9:34pm
                was wondering that myself Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 26 2012, 10:10pm
                Thorin an Great Goblin action figure Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 11:10pm
                    I really don't like this Bolg vs. Gandalf thing. But that maybe deserves a seperate post. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:36pm
                        At least we know Gandlf wins ! ^^ / Ffnir Send a private message to Ffnir Sep 26 2012, 11:45pm
                            Indeed. Lol. Though it seems more likely they must draw, since Bolg will almost certainly AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:51pm
                                Bolg Carne Send a private message to Carne Sep 27 2012, 12:16am
                                    That statement does not necessarily refer to Gandalf. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 27 2012, 2:16am
                                        Bolg's opponent dave_lf Send a private message to dave_lf Sep 27 2012, 12:38pm
                                    I agree. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 27 2012, 8:51am
                                        Here is why that doesn't add up or make sense.. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 28 2012, 1:18am
                                    Also Carne, even by the less than book potent version of Gandalf seen in LOTR AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 28 2012, 1:30am
                                        What Gandalf CAN do vs. what he wants (or is allowed) to do Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 28 2012, 4:41am
                                            Right Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 28 2012, 4:57am
                                                I think the Istari Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 28 2012, 7:53am
                                                    Exactly Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 28 2012, 4:27pm
                                                    They are restrained, and their greater Spiritual power is, seemingly AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 29 2012, 12:46am
                                                        What is vs. reality Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 29 2012, 2:04pm
                                                            I think there is something to your speculation. But my issue isn't with the way Tolkien AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 29 2012, 6:39pm
                                                                Tolkien never portrays Gandalf the Grey as that powerful Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 7:13am
                                                                    He was powerful enough though. DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:01am
                                                                        Only because Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:10am
                                                                            Depends how you define "power" DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:14am
                                                                                This is one of the most untrue things I have ever read. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:30am
                                                                                    Was Galadriel (Third Age) both very powerful, and very wise? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:36am
                                                                                        But it's wasn't power that made her wise. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:47am
                                                                                            Ahh, it seems you misunderstood me then DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 10:50am
                                                                                                Wisdom can give you a degree of power Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 10:55am
                                                                                                    Agreed DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 11:07am
                                                                                                        I don't think Gandalf Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 2:16pm
                                                                                                            Only Bard could have defeated him then? / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 2:38pm
                                                                                                                In a sense, yes. Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Sep 30 2012, 4:40pm
                                                                                                                    Yes, Bard was "meant" to DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 30 2012, 4:45pm
                                                                            No. Not just because of Thranduil. Tolkien specifically said he had to find somewhere to AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 1 2012, 8:17am
                                                                                Gandalf's power Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 1 2012, 2:49pm
                                                                                    Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 2 2012, 12:55am
                                                                                        You may hero-worship Gandalf, but it's not consistent with Tolkien Fardragon Send a private message to Fardragon Oct 2 2012, 8:05am
                                                                                            Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 3 2012, 12:51am
                                                                    He does not blind his opponent with Bright lights. That is a Jackson thing. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Oct 1 2012, 8:09am
                        I don't put anything past Peter Jackson Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 26 2012, 11:55pm
                            AHAHAHAHAHHA. . . . wait. . . wait. . . AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2012, 11:58pm
                                LOL Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Sep 27 2012, 12:06am
                                    Some tweaking Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Sep 27 2012, 12:22am
                            Okay... Tim Send a private message to Tim Sep 27 2012, 2:25am
                            Peter's a fan, too, you know. Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 5:55am
                                He is most certainly a fan Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 5:58am
                                    Sharp words! Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 5:59am
                                        Not at all Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 6:17am
                                            Um Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Sep 27 2012, 6:20am
                                                What point? Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Sep 27 2012, 6:22am
                            Because he doesn't want his films to be ridiculous? dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 27 2012, 8:00am
                                Interest JWPlatt Sep 27 2012, 8:21am
                                    That's true of anyone who does anything artistic... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 27 2012, 10:11am

 
 
 

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