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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Sauron in AUJ?
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 4:12pm

Post #26 of 45 (236 views)
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The audience should be able [In reply to] Can't Post

to draw their own conclusion. If by the end of the 3 films, they are aware of who he is great... If not, when they see FOTR they will notice some of the subtle hints dropped through out the Hobbit and want to slap their palm across their head going "why didn't I see that?" My personal opinion is to just leave him as the Necromancer and use visual subtle hints as to his true identity which each individual would have to figure out for themselves and then get it (or already know) by seeing FOTR


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:17pm

Post #27 of 45 (231 views)
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So if it is "great" if [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people know, as you say, why would it be not good for the whole audience to know?

I think I'll probably support Tolkien's technique of just telling his readers straightforwardly and plainly. Works well for me.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 4:21pm

Post #28 of 45 (236 views)
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Those who haven't seen LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe wouldn't know... Why do people always have to assume that everyone in the world has seen LOTR? And well Tolkien never told us who the Necromancer was in the Hobbit to get technical Tongue and he got what a whole paragraph related to the Hobbit in the appendixes? Lots of Tolkien information there. Telling people straight forward isn't nearly as interesting as letting a mystery build up IMO


Elutherian
Rohan


Sep 23 2012, 4:33pm

Post #29 of 45 (224 views)
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Maybe have a group of orcs... [In reply to] Can't Post

...pushing a small tower with a flaming Eye on top of it through Dol Guildur. Wink

I kid... I kid.

But I do think some connection can be made. Perhaps have someone at a White Council meeting (in the second or third film) wonder aloud if the Necromancer could be/have been (once he's driven out) "The Dark Lord" and that perhaps he may come back.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:37pm

Post #30 of 45 (210 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

He told us in the sequel at the point at which Gandalf's side adventures at Dol Guldur were revealed.

If it is a preference for mystery then that is of course fine.

LR


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 23 2012, 4:38pm

Post #31 of 45 (221 views)
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His name [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, there has to be at least some concealment of the name Sauron, since he was building his strength in secret, and the White Council does have to make the discovery that the Necromancer and the source of the growing shadow is, indeed, him. True, the script could be taking a completely different approach, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 4:40pm

Post #32 of 45 (254 views)
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I too am very eager to see the Necromancer story unfold [In reply to] Can't Post

however, neither Benedict Cumberbatch or Nathaniel Lees (both of whom have been mentioned as portraying the Necromancer) are included in the revised cast list on the official Apple App for AUJ - while actors such as Manu Bennett (Azog), Conan Stevens (Bolg), and Bret McKenzie (Lindir) are, meaning we won't see the Necromancer/Sauron in the first film (unless it's a non-speaking role? Although, as it's apparently a mo-cap performance, someone should still be credited it he appears on-screen, I would imagine).

BTW, a stuntman mentioned playing a Ringwraith in TH (I believe Carne posted thing last year) so it seems the Nazgul WILL indeed appear in TH.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:43pm

Post #33 of 45 (211 views)
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By the end of TH trilogy I meant rather than by any particular point within them [In reply to] Can't Post

Should have been clearer.


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 23 2012, 4:51pm

Post #34 of 45 (202 views)
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Tricky situation [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been wondering how they'll handle this whole thing. True, the audience should come away knowing that it's Sauron, as should several characters. However, it's kind of important that Biblo not become aware of the implications of Sauron's identity (at least within the time-frame of the story itself.) Whether he knows or not by the time of the Frodo frame device sort of depends on when that frame is supposed to be taking place.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:58pm

Post #35 of 45 (190 views)
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I fully agree though I think [In reply to] Can't Post

That there shouldn't be too much difficulty in separating what the audience know, what the WC know and what characters such as Bilbo know.

It does appear that, in the text, even several Hobbits had heard the tale of Sauron's move from Mirkwood to Mordor and seemed roughly aware of him as a character, though they were not necessarily au fair with all the details.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 5:02pm

Post #36 of 45 (183 views)
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But if not [In reply to] Can't Post

we get everything we need to know in the beginning of FOTR Wink


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 5:03pm

Post #37 of 45 (185 views)
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I suppose Gandy could have always filled Bilbo in later over the intervening years...?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 5:12pm

Post #38 of 45 (177 views)
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Well obviously not. [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't get told anything about the identity of The Necromancer in the FOTR film, though of course we do in the text.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 5:15pm

Post #39 of 45 (180 views)
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It will play out the way it plays out [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm hoping for a less is more type production with some sort of mystery to who the necromancer actually is with subtle hints and if people don't get it they don't. I just think being too obvious will hurt the films overall from beginning to end (the Hobbit AUJ to ROTK)But again like I said we shall see how it plays out


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 23 2012, 6:23pm

Post #40 of 45 (157 views)
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Balance [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree you can't make Sauron the main focus, but I do think he needs some meat on the bone. It's part of why Gandalf talks Thorin into reclaiming the lonely mountain.



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 23 2012, 6:31pm

Post #41 of 45 (145 views)
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But it also takes the adventure [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo goes on and takes it out of the context of the book. Yeah all the little untold things are great but we really don't need them to tell the story of the Hobbit. To make everything in middle earth related to Sauron just makes this vast world seem small.I think its better to have separate evil forces at work instead of trying to tie them all together. It wasn't even a realized fear that Sauron would try and use Smaug, it was just a theory that Gandalf had an unrealized theory at that. why make more of it than really needs to be made. Isn't there enough made up material in these films already?


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 23 2012, 6:40pm

Post #42 of 45 (169 views)
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The adventure is sill there [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo's story will still be there and the magic if it will still be there. Filling in the gaps I think only makes everything better. There is info Tolkien out out there that I think should be seen and some of the adaptation Jackson will do just gives a great journey. I don't think it makes the world seem small at all but that's just me I guess. It may be just a theory but its the reason the whole journey happens so it should be seen and explained.



Ruijor
Rohan


Sep 25 2012, 5:33am

Post #43 of 45 (69 views)
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With 3 movies coming up [In reply to] Can't Post

Im expecting they will find enough room to fit the Rise of Sauron subplot very gradually, so i am expecting to see a lot more in film 2 and 3, not so much right away on AUJ. And I agree that in the end of the day Sauron will be the biggest villain when audiences start seeing this movies chronologically.


ericmvan
The Shire

Sep 25 2012, 5:57am

Post #44 of 45 (89 views)
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Not Quite the Right Sequence [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
- gandalf gets the key from thrain in dol guldur, but doesn't realize, that its the home of the necromancer
- radagast finds out, that a dark power returned to mirkwood
- radagast meets gandalf between bagend and trollshaws and tells him, that maybe the dark power might've awaken the nazgul from their graves (perhabs at the barrow downs or maybe angmar/carn dm).
- gandalf visits the graves and recieves the morgul-blade
- the white council debates about, that only sauron could awaken the nazgul, and that it is him, who returned to dol guldur (but maybe this is too early in the movie)
.


Radagast's not at the Council, so Gandalf finding the Morgul-blade and Radagast's discoveries (climaxing with the giant spider attacking Rhosgobel) are two separate lines of evidence that Sauron has returned. Which is good storytelling.

-- Gandalf finds the Morgul-blade somewhere, and presents it at the council. It's decided that the Nazgul tombs need to be examined, and probably that Gandalf will do this once he gets the Dwarves safely through the Mountains. The tombs are probably in Anduin Vale, then, a good location from the Council's POV as they are near both Radagast and Galadriel and not that far from Elrond.
-- Radagast is attacked and flees Rhosgobel.
-- He meets up with Gandalf in some way, and they investigate the tombs. Finding them empty means that the Council has to attack Dol Guldur ASAP.

The last was I think originally intended for late in AUJ, but will now be early in the second movie and will kick off the whole major Necromancer story line.

Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish, it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered -- JRRT, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Commentary, note 9.


Solicitr
Lorien

Sep 25 2012, 6:27pm

Post #45 of 45 (106 views)
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Can't wait [In reply to] Can't Post

I really can hardly hold my breath until I see how the White Council manage to turn the Necromancer into the Angry Lighthouse

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