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Roger Garland's painting "Thu as Wolf More Great"


Sep 20 2012, 9:02pm

Post #1 of 6 (451 views)
Roger Garland's painting "Thu as Wolf More Great" Can't Post

always intrigued me because I could not find the name in the Silmarillion. It appears he was delving into other works...Lost Tales etc. Howeever, BOLT indicates "Tu" the wizard of fay who became King of the Dark Elves...Replaced by Tuvo...Lord of Gloaming.
Where is the wolf connection?

As I posted under the Warg discussion in The Hobbit forum....


later became Thu, who was later Sauron."


"Sauron grew from a combination of three characters from the Lost Tales - he has the name of the wizard Tu (Tu - Thu - Thaur - Thauron - Sauron), the position of Fankil/Fangli (The Dragon to Melko), and the narrative role of Tevildo Prince of Cats in The Tale of Tinuviel."

When Sauron, as a werewolf fights Huan this was
probably his form.


Ted Nasmith drew the fight but he used the name "Wolf-Sauron" and he appears more werewolfish / demon in the rendering.

Doen anyone know the reference for Thu or Tu as Sauron in one of the texts?

(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 20 2012, 9:08pm)

Ziggy Stardust

Sep 21 2012, 1:49am

Post #2 of 6 (297 views)
I'm afraid I don't [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard Thu mentioned, but didn't know all this. The info you posted from tvtropes was interesting. I did not know most of that stuff. Wow. Shocked


Sep 21 2012, 3:43am

Post #3 of 6 (318 views)
Thu [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien notes that Thu first appears in The Lay of the Children of Hurin as a 'thane most mighty/ neath Morgoth Bauglir' -- Thu knew of Turin and feared him, and was ordered to assault Doriath. Jumping back to Tevildo...


'... Did Tevildo? It would scarcely be true, I think, to say even that Sauron 'originated' in a cat: in the next phase of the legends the Necromancer (Thu) has no feline attributes. On the other hand it would be wrong to regard it as a simple matter or replacement (Thu stepping into the narrative place vacated by Telildo) without any element of transformation of what was previously there. Tevildo's immediate successor is 'the Lord of Wolves', himself a werewolf, and he retains the Tevildo-trait of hating Huan more than any other creature in the world. Tevildo was 'evil fay in beast-like shape' (p. 29); and the batte between the two great beasts, the hound against the werewolf (originally the hound against the demon in feline form) was never lost.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Tale of Tinuviel, The Book of Lost Tales II

If I recall correctly the other two characters mentioned are relatively briefly referred to in early outlines for the Lost Tales, or (at least one) in a brief narrative. At one point Christopher Tolkien notes that the wizard Tu from The Book of Lost Tales disappears and does not reappear again. Without going into what is variously said of these characters here, I don't recall if CJRT actually comments anywhere with respect to Fangli or Tu as possible partial 'ingredients', so to speak, for the later Thu -- who ultimately 'became' the Sauron readers would come to know as he evolved.

Anywa, if that's something like what you're looking for.

Tweezers of Thu

Sep 21 2012, 12:20pm

Post #4 of 6 (368 views)
See also HoMe III, The Lays of Beleriand, "The Lay of Leithian." [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
Doen anyone know the reference for Thu or Tu as Sauron in one of the texts?

In addition to Elthir's recommendation above, have a look at "The Lay of Leithian" and Christopher Tolkien's commentary therein, for example:

There are indeed differences in the plot of the Lay from the story told in The Silmarillion (pp. 162ff.): thus the house where Gorlim saw the phantom of Eilinel was not in the Lay his own; his treachery was far deeper and more deliberate, in that he sought out the servants of Morgoth with the intention of revealing the hiding-place of the outlaws; and he came before Morgoth himself (not Thu-Sauron).

Also see Canto VII in "The Lay of Leithian." Here's a snippet followed by C. Tolkien's commentary on specific lines of the verses (cf. numbers given).

Men called him Thu, and as a god
in after days beneath his rod 2065
bewildered bowed to him, and made
his ghastly temples in the shade.

Not yet by Men enthralled adored,
now was he Morgoth's mightiest lord...

And from CT's notes:

2064-6. Emended in B to:

Gnomes called him Gorthu, as a god
in after days beneath his rod
bewildered they bowed to him, and made...

(Sauron was first substituted for Thu!

And CT's notes on these lines:

(3947, 3951) Thu was changed to Sauron.

Also, the duel of song between Finrod Felagund and Sauron that is told in The Silmarillion is almost directly lifted from Canto VII of The Lay of Leithian.

From Canto IX, we have the Th-wolf connection as illustrated by Garland's vivid rendering:

Thus came Thu, as wolf more great 2740
than e'er was seen from Angband's gate
to the burning south, than ever lurked
in mortal lands or murder worked.

Th also is mentioned in HoMe V, The Lost Road and Other Writings.

I'm not altogether certain this addresses your question, and the examples I have provided are not exhaustive, but hopefully, they'll help a bit. I highly recommend "The Lay of Leithian." It's gorgeous poetry.

A lake is the landscape's most beautiful and expressive feature. It is Earth's eye; looking into which the beholder measures the depth of his own nature. ~~ Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by Tweezers of Thu on Sep 21 2012, 12:23pm)


Sep 21 2012, 2:11pm

Post #5 of 6 (303 views)
Ahhh, there it is...thanks.... [In reply to] Can't Post

From Canto IX, we have the Th-wolf connection as illustrated by Garland's vivid rendering:


Thus came Thu, as wolf more great 2740
than e'er was seen from Angband's gate
to the burning south, than ever lurked
in mortal lands or murder worked.

Garland really found and illustrated an obscure piece of Tolkien's world - but he did a service in doing so as the journey to find it forces us to go back and explore some of the "secondary" texts for their gems. It also brings up the whole evolution of Sauron appearances. For example, if one wanted to really mess with The Hobbit, you could have Sauron shape shift into wolf form and command the warg riders etc. I am not wanting this of course, and it comes from material off limits to Jackson, but it could be imagined based on the reference.


Sep 21 2012, 2:41pm

Post #6 of 6 (338 views)
Just in sound - Thu reminds be of Lovecracft's Cthulhu [In reply to] Can't Post


" The Whisperer in Darkness (1930) hints at one of his character's knowing the creatures origins ("I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth.").[8] The 1931 novella At the Mountains of Madness refers to the "star-spawn of Cthulhu", who warred with another race called the Elder Things before the dawn of man.[12]"

The idea that JRRT read Lovecraft was discussed here:


I don't see any direct connection as JRRT was writing his material at the same time, before, and after Lovecraft published..."Tolkien worked on The Lay of Leithian from the summer of 1925 until September 1931"



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