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* * A Warm Welcome * * 3 - final questions and wrap-up

telain
Rohan

Sep 15 2012, 7:11pm

Post #1 of 8 (699 views)
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* * A Warm Welcome * * 3 - final questions and wrap-up Can't Post

We’re all busy this time of year, so I’ll limit my posts to 3. This last question, then, serves as the summing up of the chapter.

Our Party has successfully extricated itself from the escape barrels and convinced a group of merry-making guards to take them to the Master of Lake-town. Bilbo, like myself, has caught a nasty cold...

As you read from “I am Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror King under the Mountain! I return!” to the end of the chapter, you might consider the following questions:

1.But lock nor bar may hinder the homecoming spoken of old.” Notice the way Thorin speaks in this part of the chapter. How would you describe it: royally, bombastic, archaic, something else? What is his motivation?

2. How does Lake-town respond to the dwarves’ homecoming? Is everyone excited and are they excited for the same reason(s)? I can understand why the Wood-elves were shocked to see Thorin, et al, but exactly why were they afraid?

3. Some of the “new songs” of the dwarves’ homecoming -- inspired by the Master of Lake-town -- include lines like “...cargoes of rich presents coming down the river to Lake-town.” Why would the Master of Lake-town inspire and/or encourage these renditions?

These versions of the songs “...did not particularly please the dwarves...”. Is this because Thorin feels they will be expected to share the wealth of the Mountain (and, btw, they have no mind to do so)?

Are Thorin & Co. deceiving the Lake-towners? Using them? Does this knowledge dampen your sympathy for their cause -- especially after being fed, clothed and housed by Lake-town citizens -- or are the Lake-towners expecting too much?

4. The Wood-elves return to Mikwood with news of the Party’s escape. Tolkien adds “I have never heard what happened to the chief of guards or the butler.

What do you think happened to them? Sent downriver in a few barrels of their own?

5. The end of the chapter illustrates two contrasting reactions to the knowledge of Thorin’s quest. What is/are the key difference(s) between how the Master of Lake-town reacts to the news and how Thranduil, king of the Wood-elves reacts?

Why is Thranduil considered by Tolkien/the Narrator to be wiser -- is it his experience (i.e., the number and kinds of experiences we imagine Thranduil to have had), or his values? Or something else?

6. Any last thoughts on “A Warm Welcome?” Was it as unambiguous as you previously thought?

Are there any themes or key points we need to carry over to “On the Doorstep”?

Finally, "Thank You" to all who read and responded!


sador
Half-elven


Sep 15 2012, 7:21pm

Post #2 of 8 (269 views)
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Apologies to both you and dernwyn... [In reply to] Can't Post

Busy this time of the year indeed!

I am unlikely to be able to post until Wednsday. But please G-d, I will catch up then.
In the meantime, thank you for those excellent questions!

"Has Bilbo's presence for the most part generally gone unnoticed at the feast, or are people simply being more polite to and celebratory of the dwarves, whose arrival is more expected?"

"Well, there’s thirteen rough and bearded short people, and one rather prissy and unbearded short person. The answer is obvious. Surely the people of Lake-town are knowledgeable enough to not ever dare bother a Dwarven female without leave."
- Laerasea / Darkstone



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Warm Welcome!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 16 2012, 11:27pm

Post #3 of 8 (219 views)
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Indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

See you later this week!

(And may you and your family be inscribed for a good year! Smile)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 17 2012, 1:23am

Post #4 of 8 (227 views)
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Ladies and gentlemen - the Beatles! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. ...Notice the way Thorin speaks in this part of the chapter. How would you describe it: royally, bombastic, archaic, something else? What is his motivation?

Ooh, he's got some toughies in this audience! Elves, eh? Best to come off strong, secure, self-assured. Add to the mystery, never explain it. And concentrate on the head honcho. Of course, it helps that Thorin has an ego big enough to fill the Lonely Mountain.

2. How does Lake-town respond to the dwarves’ homecoming? Is everyone excited and are they excited for the same reason(s)? I can understand why the Wood-elves were shocked to see Thorin, et al, but exactly why were they afraid?

What excitement for this lonely little outpost! What fun to have "superstars" in their midst! Any excuse for a holiday, a lovely diversion from their dreary lives. But the Wood-elves: first, they have no idea how this group ever escaped from their king's magic-guarded realm, they must have had help, but what kind of power was it? And second, if their king did do wrong by imprisoning this group, then is that "power" going to extract revenge? This is not stated, but I feel an implication there.

3. Some of the “new songs” of the dwarves’ homecoming -- inspired by the Master of Lake-town -- include lines like “...cargoes of rich presents coming down the river to Lake-town.” Why would the Master of Lake-town inspire and/or encourage these renditions?

Oh ho! Let's start adding in a bit of wealth for ourselves. If the dwarves are frauds, as he believed, then the people will turn against them just as strongly as they welcomed them, feeling "cheated".

Are Thorin & Co. deceiving the Lake-towners? Using them? Does this knowledge dampen your sympathy for their cause -- especially after being fed, clothed and housed by Lake-town citizens -- or are the Lake-towners expecting too much?

The dwarves feel they are getting just what is due them, after all they have gone through. After all, Erebor and Dale once had a thriving commerce in this area. So why should the dwarves not expect some aid? At least, to their minds.

4. The Wood-elves return to Mirkwood with news of the Party’s escape. Tolkien adds “I have never heard what happened to the chief of guards or the butler.”

What do you think happened to them? Sent downriver in a few barrels of their own?


Most likely demoted to spider-duty, at least the guard was! But how to explain the never-missing keys? You can imagine those cell-doors were given every conceivable inspection and test.

5. The end of the chapter illustrates two contrasting reactions to the knowledge of Thorin’s quest. What is/are the key difference(s) between how the Master of Lake-town reacts to the news and how Thranduil, king of the Wood-elves reacts?

The Master's reaction is "good riddance, you've been a nuisance to the business of this town!". But the Elf-king sees a Dragon versus fourteen small characters, realizes that that's far too few to fight such a beast (especially as poorly armed as they are), and may know that any interference with it may rouse it, which would be bad news for the lands around. So he wisely waits - and watches.

6. Any last thoughts on “A Warm Welcome?”

Row, row, row your boat, gently up the stream...

Are there any themes or key points we need to carry over to “On the Doorstep”?

Coming right up! Thanks, telain!

Smile


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






telain
Rohan

Sep 17 2012, 3:49pm

Post #5 of 8 (210 views)
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no worries... [In reply to] Can't Post

...your posts are always well worth the wait!

May you catch up soon!


telain
Rohan

Sep 17 2012, 3:56pm

Post #6 of 8 (222 views)
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merrily, merrily, merrily... [In reply to] Can't Post

After so much secrecy, the cat gets let out of the bag, doesn't it? I quite like how you characterized the Master's of L-t and Thranduil's reaction to the knowledge of the scheme.

I had a laugh imagining the Elves trying to work out how the doors to the cells were unlocked... While I always enjoyed the character of Thranduil, I also think of him as a rather stern character. I imagine it must have been quite a awkward and daunting moment when they had to "explain" to him what happened...


sador
Half-elven


Sep 19 2012, 8:24am

Post #7 of 8 (204 views)
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Thank you! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Has Bilbo's presence for the most part generally gone unnoticed at the feast, or are people simply being more polite to and celebratory of the dwarves, whose arrival is more expected?"

"Well, there’s thirteen rough and bearded short people, and one rather prissy and unbearded short person. The answer is obvious. Surely the people of Lake-town are knowledgeable enough to not ever dare bother a Dwarven female without leave."
- Laerasea / Darkstone



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Warm Welcome!


sador
Half-elven


Sep 19 2012, 2:33pm

Post #8 of 8 (630 views)
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Late Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Notice the way Thorin speaks in this part of the chapter. How would you describe it: royally, bombastic, archaic, something else?
Heroic.

What is his motivation?
This is his natural tongue. Thorin is back in his element again.

(Yes, he is versatile - at times formal, humourous, deferrent, opaque and outraged; but by rights he is of the heroic North)

2. How does Lake-town respond to the dwarves’ homecoming?

Like political hacks on an election year. Some caught a glimpse of an ear! Loud cheers. Not just a nose, but one who had actually sneezed! Trumpets and fanfare.

Well, this might also describe Tolkien-fans a couple of months before a new film comes out.

Is everyone excited and are they excited for the same reason(s)?
They never are.

I can understand why the Wood-elves were shocked to see Thorin, et al, but exactly why were they afraid?
Elves are always a teeny bit insecure, that Men would actually prefer the dwarves to them.
Can't blame them, as a matter of fact.

3. Why would the Master of Lake-town inspire and/or encourage these renditions?

It was an election year.

Is this because Thorin feels they will be expected to share the wealth of the Mountain (and, btw, they have no mind to do so)?

No; he feels the Men would fain usurp him of all of it.
Do you remember his unanswered question to Bard, what would have happened had the Dwarves perished in Smaug's first onslaught and the treasure left undefended? And Bard's own dreams of rebuilding Dale?

This question was a direct result of these songs; and Bard didn't answer because, of course, he had no good answer (except for an army at his back).

Are Thorin & Co. deceiving the Lake-towners?
No.

Using them?
In a way. But they fully intend to pay them back afterwards.

Does this knowledge dampen your sympathy for their cause -- especially after being fed, clothed and housed by Lake-town citizens --
Didn't they use Elrond and Beorn? And they did not really intend to pay theose two.

or are the Lake-towners expecting too much?
They did not expect anything from the Dwarves. They expected to conquer the unguarded Mountain and loot it for their own benefit.
If not for the Elvenking, they would have attempted to lynch them on the spot; and if not for Roac, they would have succeeded.

4. What do you think happened to them?
Headed west and opened a syndicate.

Sent downriver in a few barrels of their own?
So after tossing a few dwarves, the young toss-pots got to toss those two servants in barrels? He he!


Quote

If I had served my God as diligently as I did my king, He would not have given me over in my grey hairs.

- Cardinal Wolsey.

5. What is/are the key difference(s) between how the Master of Lake-town reacts to the news and how Thranduil, king of the Wood-elves reacts?
The Master makes sure he controls the ebb and flow of public opinion. The Elvenking takes precautions against future disaster.

Quote
Whereas politicians care only about the next election, statesmen think of the next generation.

- Benjamin Disraeli.

Why is Thranduil considered by Tolkien/the Narrator to be wiser -- is it his experience (i.e., the number and kinds of experiences we imagine Thranduil to have had), or his values? He is an Elf. Or something else? If nothing else, he does realise that Thorin will go up to the Mountain.

6. Any last thoughts on “A Warm Welcome?” Was it as unambiguous as you previously thought? I haven't changed my mind greatly.

Are there any themes or key points we need to carry over to “On the Doorstep”? The last paragraph! One of my favourites, and you never mentioned it!

Finally, "Thank You" to all who read and responded! Thank you, telain! You did great!


"Has Bilbo's presence for the most part generally gone unnoticed at the feast, or are people simply being more polite to and celebratory of the dwarves, whose arrival is more expected?"

"Well, there’s thirteen rough and bearded short people, and one rather prissy and unbearded short person. The answer is obvious. Surely the people of Lake-town are knowledgeable enough to not ever dare bother a Dwarven female without leave."
- Laerasea / Darkstone



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for A Warm Welcome!

 
 

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