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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Concerning possible Werewolves, Vampires, Wights et al at Dol Guldur.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 12:03am

Post #26 of 40 (170 views)
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And here I was just about to thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

for recognizing and noting that I hadn't specifically pointed to 21st century werewolves or vampires. Shocked

In Reply To
I really thought you couldn't possibly get you-know-who into this one!

LR


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 16 2012, 12:09am

Post #27 of 40 (163 views)
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It's meant very affectionately, I hasten to add! NT [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Aug 16 2012, 12:22am

Post #28 of 40 (160 views)
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Barrows and woods. [In reply to] Can't Post

Barrows are definitely pre-Roman and pre-Celtic in origin, but even then, you could argue that the type of people the elves represent go back even further. You'd have to go at least to the Mesolithic period - about 4000 BC. to find people inhabiting the woodland as hunter gatherers in England. Even then, there's evidence of forest clearance and the beginnings of vegetation management - early farming. The bronze age people brought in farming - the kind of agriculture that perhaps the shire suggests (although translated to a 'modern' variant). So references to elves - or the English versions, such as pixies, piskies (Cornish variant), fairies, etc. might be an echo of these supplanted hunter-gatherer people, who would probably have worshipped animal and ancestor spirits, and would also have perhaps become fully mythologised, even by the time the Celts turned up. Having said that, it's possible that the invading Indo-Europeans, who became the Celts, Norse, Germanic etc. brought the notion of elves with them from the east. Plus everything was already mixed together even before Tolkien reinvented the mythology for his stories, so origins are not easy to pin down (Father Christmas and Satan arguably sharing the same mythological root, for example).

Bit off the topic of the thread, but I think Tolkien's writing is exploring the layers of memory that permeate English culture - something we're just about still in touch with. I, personally, wouldn't want any references that are more modern than those that Tolkien uses - things need to feel old - so Gothic vampires etc. would not fit well with me, but some older version would be ok.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 1:05am

Post #29 of 40 (149 views)
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All right then [In reply to] Can't Post

@ Lacrimae EvilWink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 16 2012, 1:17am

Post #30 of 40 (163 views)
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I too wouldn't mind seeing Vampires and Werewolves [In reply to] Can't Post

They are some of my favorite supernatural beings, and they are part of Middle-Earth, yet there is so little information on them. With the recent weak portrayals of vampires and werewolves in film, I can see why some people are iffy. But if people really wanted to, they could do research, and find that the vampires and werewolves of lore are much scarier-and better than silly Hollywood glamour.

I have done research on werewolves and vampires, and even own books about them. I've also read about the ones in Middle-Earth, such as Draugluin and Thuringwethil, and based on their descriptions, and of what I know in actual mythology (not Hollywood glamour) Jackson and company could pull it off.

Werewolves are most associated with Romania, but seldom people know that they are also in Norse mythology, from which Tolkien drew inspiration from. In Norse, werewolves are similar to skin-changers like Beorn, except they take the form of demonic wolves. In other sources, werewolves would make a pact with the Devil, and be given a wolf pelt, for which they could transform. In others, such as the tale of Lycaon, they were cursed for being evil. The werewolves in the Silmarillion sort of reminded me of corrupt beings that were cursed. If they were to have werewolves in the Hobbit (which would be cool) they can portray a big, ferocious wolf, with evil, lumionous yellow eyes, they can be capable of walking on twos and fours, and has a bloodlust the size of Russia. Trust me, that would make them way different from those mutant puppies from Twilight.

Vampires in lore are also quite different from the Hollywood glamour. In lore, they are dangerous, demonic beings that like to bring humans to their destruction. (They don't look for dates.) They have a bloodlust bigger than Russia, and are present in Germanic, Celtic and Norse mythology, among others. In these myths in particular, vampires were portrayed as humanoid, but there skin is white, like as in paper or snow, not as in really pale like in the movies. They're eyes are red, they have large fangs, long sharp fingernails, and get this-their ears actually have points at the tips. In Norse, they sound almost like the Dark Elves, some vampires having pitch black skin, others being deathly white. If they were to put vampires in the Hobbit, they can still be scary, and have humanoid shapes. Although there isn't much info on Thuringwethil, I always pictured her as being a demonic-looking woman with fangs, since her name means "Woman of Shadow". I never thought of an animal being called "Woman of Shadow."

Wow, that was long. I tend to get on subjects I know about. Evil


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 2:37am

Post #31 of 40 (148 views)
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Great info Ziggy, [In reply to] Can't Post

And a kinsman in Bowie to boot. lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 4:42am

Post #32 of 40 (153 views)
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Tolkien's Werewolves... [In reply to] Can't Post

You have more-or-less nailed it, Ziggy, on Tolkien's Werewolves. They do not have a human form and were never human to begin with. Dreadful spirits trapped in the bodies of huge Wargs, there is little (if any) evidence that they could assume a bipedal form or speak, but that would held distinguish them from natural beasts. Their physical bodies could be killed, and would dissolve in sunlight, only to reform with the fall of night.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 16 2012, 4:46am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 4:48am

Post #33 of 40 (143 views)
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Dragluin certainly could speak, [In reply to] Can't Post

and there is no reason to believe other werewolves could not also.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 16 2012, 5:00am

Post #34 of 40 (144 views)
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Draugluin? [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a good point about Draugluin. I'm not as sure about him (or Carcharoth or any of their descendants) having a two-legged form, although I find the idea appealing. It gives them a more supernatural appearance and sets them apart from Wargs (as well as inviting the old saw about "barking commands").

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 16 2012, 5:02am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 17 2012, 12:37am

Post #35 of 40 (78 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, I've got a thing for werewolves and vampires.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 17 2012, 12:42am

Post #36 of 40 (78 views)
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Yes, I think so, [In reply to] Can't Post

however, it may be possible for them to have a bipedal or "human" form (I put human in quotes, because no matter what a werewolf looks like they are not human.) If I recall, in The Silmarillion, Beren took Draugluin's pelt, and used it to transform, which made me think Draugluin *might've* and I'd take it with a grain of salt, had a bipedal form.

I also forgot to mention in regard to werwolves, in their untransformed or "human"/bipedal state, they have telltale signs that scream "I'm not human." They are very hairy, with have hair on hands, and even palms, claws, sharp teeth, and eyebrows that meet in the middle, and by the bridge of the nose, already giving them a wolf look. If anyone looks at a wolf, notice how above the eyes, they have what looks like "brows" that meet at the bridge? Huskies have this too.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 17 2012, 1:55pm

Post #37 of 40 (85 views)
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I dont' think Tolkien's Werewolves ever looked human... [In reply to] Can't Post

When I use the term bipedal when referring to Middle-earth Werewolves then I mean that they might assume a monstrous hybrid form that walks on two legs. They would still look more like monstrous wolves than anything else, although their front paws might be more like clawed hands and they could be capable of holding weapons and using human speech.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 17 2012, 3:14pm

Post #38 of 40 (72 views)
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I don't think there's any suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

That Tolkien's werewolves were bi-pedal.

Based on what he wrote, it seems more likely that he used the word in its older form. Wolf bodies essentially animated by dark spirits.


kzer_za
Rivendell

Aug 17 2012, 3:19pm

Post #39 of 40 (74 views)
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Well, Arda does have its share of shapeshifters [In reply to] Can't Post

So while it's open to interpretation, it's not entirely out of question that they were werewolves in the modern sense.

With that said, I'd prefer PJ not to go this route. The story has enough monsters for him to play with already!


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Aug 17 2012, 3:19pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 17 2012, 4:21pm

Post #40 of 40 (84 views)
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No, however... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Werewolves should be distictive enough to tell them apart from common Wargs or what is the point of using them?

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

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