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** The Hobbit, “Riddles in the Dark”** 4. – “My birthday-present! It came to me on my birthday, my precious”

squire
Valinor


Aug 13 2012, 4:46pm

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** The Hobbit, “Riddles in the Dark”** 4. – “My birthday-present! It came to me on my birthday, my precious” Can't Post

We are continuing from the point where Bilbo has just guessed Gollum’s last and hardest riddle, the one whose answer is coincidentally Bilbo’s panicked plea for more “TIME!”

Gollum is getting angry and hungry. He does not return to his boat, but sits by Bilbo, which unnerves the hobbit. Gollum demands, “It’s got to ask uss a question, my preciouss, yes, yess, yesss. Just one more question to guess, yes, yess.”

As at the beginning of the contest, Gollum here characterizes the riddle game as “asking a question” instead of “saying or reciting a riddle-verse.” And we are told that Bilbo “simply could not think of any question…”
A. Is this the author’s device for allowing Bilbo the leeway to get away with what is about to happen: literally asking a question instead of giving a true riddle? Or is it not an important distinction?


B. Why the additional hissing s’s in this speech of Gollum’s? Doesn’t he hiss like this all the time?

Repeatedly Bilbo “pinches himself”, and slaps and scratches himself, as he tries to think of a riddle. Meanwhile Gollum is “pawing and poking him.”
C. Why all this sudden physicality?

In his distracted and desperate state, Bilbo “even felt in his pocket” – and finds the ring there. He asks himself “What have I got in my pocket?” out loud, but not as a question to Gollum. According to the narrator, “he was talking to himself.” But Gollum takes this to be the “question”, that is, the riddle, he has been waiting for.
D. I find this musing out loud in the middle of a deadly-tense confrontation to be rather contrived and unbelievable. Do you? Why does Bilbo not simply make up a rhyming riddle on the spot, that is based on the ring in his pocket?

Gollum calls this “not fair!” but Bilbo goes with what he’s got and repeats the question, thus insisting that it counts as his riddle. Gollum accepts with an extended hiss, but demands three guesses and Bilbo agrees.
E. Is three guesses the traditional number? Why not two, or five, for instance?

F. Does Gollum’s ready acceptance of Bilbo’s question on condition of multiple guesses – along with his repeated use of the phrase “ask a question” in his setting of the rules of the game – indicate that this is an understood variation within the riddle game? Or does his first reaction (“Not fair!”) suggest otherwise?

The contest’s terms were “if you/I ask, and I/you don’t answer, you/I win”. There is no allowance for a contestant failing to ask. Yet it would seem clear that failure to ask constitutes a forfeit and a loss.
G. Why does Gollum accept Bilbo’s question as a riddle, if he doesn’t have to according to the “rules”? Couldn’t he just attack and eat Bilbo as soon as Bilbo asks a question instead of stating a riddle?

Gollum cannot guess what is in Bilbo’s pocket. He tries “hands”, and then “knife” – after inventorying the contents of “his own pockets” (“fishbones, goblins’ teeth, wet shells, a bit of bat-wing, a sharp stone to sharpen his fangs on, and other nasty things”) and racking his brains to “think what other people kept in their pockets”.
H. Wait… Gollum has pockets? Is this consistent with our mental image of Gollum up to this point?

I. Any comments on the items in those pockets? Why does he not remember his ring, which we will soon learn he had “kept in a pouch next his skin” for a time?

Gollum has one last guess, and goes through his own set of rather comic contortions: “He hissed and spluttered and rocked himself backwards and forwards, and slapped his feet on the floor, and wriggled and squirmed”.
J. Is this a joking description of a small child acting out his frustration with some impossible task?

Bilbo calls “Time’s up!” and Gollum yells (actually shrieks) “String, or nothing!”. The narrator comments this was “not quite fair” to state two guesses at once, but Bilbo cheerfully says “Both wrong”, thus accepting the validity of a double guess.
K. What if one of Gollum’s guesses had been right, but the other one had been wrong: “String, or a ring!” Could Bilbo honestly say “wrong a third time” by choosing which one counted as the third?

Bilbo backs up to “the nearest wall” and holds out his sword – unsure what Gollum will do now that he has lost. The narrator comments that Bilbo “knew, of course” that “even wicked creatures were afraid to cheat when they played at it” – because the game “was sacred and of immense antiquity.”
L. How does Bilbo know that wicked creatures – goblins, dragons, trolls, etc. – play the riddle game honestly? And in any case, what could typically constitute "cheating" at a riddle game (besides asking a plain question)?


Bilbo’s problem is that, for all he knows, Gollum is even more evil than the standard “wicked creatures”, and more to the point, the last question had “not been a genuine riddle according to the ancient laws” so that Gollum had a ready excuse for not conceding his loss gracefully.
M. “Sacred”, “immense antiquity”, “ancient laws” – what kind of game is this? Are there any other games in the world of The Hobbit that are equally holy?

N. Is Tolkien having fun with children’s tendency to ascribe great antiquity to any custom they learn in the schoolyard from older children? Or how they put great authority in any casual rule their parents lay down, so that exceptions or holes in the rule can be cleverly taken advantage of?

O. Or, from his professional knowledge, is he referring to apparently childish games and rituals in our everyday lives that we unconsciously regard as sacred and that do in fact go back to the origins of our culture?

OKAY, at this point Tolkien seriously began to tackle the problem of the Ring in his 1947 revision of this chapter. The following section of the narrative, from Bilbo saying “Both wrong” to the goblin guards at the gate being amazed at his sudden disappearance, was extensively rewritten, and expanded from five pages (12 paragraphs) to ten (51 paragraphs). I will refer to the earlier version from time to time as part of our discussion of the later (and now authoritative) version, because I think the changes reveal interesting things about Tolkien’s process as a writer. They also illustrate the differences between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings – which, it is arguable, this segment of this chapter is actually a part of, since the rewrite was driven entirely by the need to make the episode consistent with the latter book.

To start with, in this passage the earlier Gollum never had the slightest intention of betraying his word – “funnily enough”, as Tolkien explains: “one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one and of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword.” The emphasis in the revised paragraph is on Bilbo’s fear of Gollum. The emphasis in the original is on Gollum’s fear of Bilbo. The emotional tenor of this first moment after Bilbo’s victory has changed.

What has happened, or rather, what is about to happen? Tolkien in his revision has to take a different route entirely from what he had written originally, where Gollum had promised to give Bilbo a “present”. At this point in the original he is realizing that he will have to follow through, in honor of his promise. The newer story lays down here the fundamental idea expressed by Frodo in LotR I.2: “Gollum meant to cheat all the time.”
P. As Gollum sits still, “shivering and whispering”, what is going through his mind? What was going through his mind in the original version?

Impatient and anxious to get on with the business of the competition, Bilbo in both versions demands that Gollum render satisfaction. What follows is the first substantial expansion of the text in the revision, with 11 paragraphs replacing one. First Gollum bitterly asks Bilbo what the answer was: what was in his pocket? “Not string, precious, but not nothing. Oh no! gollum!”
Q. What does Gollum mean by this kind of leading questioning? Does he suspect the truth yet?

Bilbo says, never mind, keep your promise. Gollum snidely says he can’t just go up the tunnels before he gets “some things first, yes, things to help us.” Although Bilbo thinks Gollum is making an excuse to disappear and not help him after all, in fact an indistinct but omniscient narrative voice takes over and seemingly gives us Gollum’s thought-processes as a form of exposition. Gollum intends to come back for sure, because “already he had a plan.” He thinks about the island where he keeps his “birthday-present”, a “ring, a golden ring, a precious ring.” Alternating with Gollum whispering to himself in dialogue (“My birthday-present!”), the narration explains that the ring is a “ring of power”, which makes you invisible when you wear it (except in full sunlight).
R. “If you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible…” Why does the voice of the writing slip into the second person (“you”) just here?

The “birthday present” is said to be Gollum’s term for it, but the narrator doubts the truth of that will ever be known, not even by “the Master who ruled [such rings].”
S. Is all this exposition relevant to The Hobbit, aside from its obvious foreshadowing of events and facts developed only in The Lord of the Rings? Did Tolkien rewrite in more depth than he had to?

Continuing with this inner/outer monologue…
T. Who is telling this part of the tale, the narrator or Gollum?

…we are told that Gollum at first wore it all the time “until it tired him” – then “kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him” – and “now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island”, although he is constantly drawn to look at it and wear it.
U. Hearing of the apparently toxic qualities of the ring, are we supposed to start worrying about Bilbo?

Gollum, we are told, used it to hunt goblins even in their lit quarters, because he was safely invisible. “Oh yes, quite safe.” He had in fact strangled and eaten “a small goblin-imp” just a few hours ago. Now he “wanted something softer,” i.e., Bilbo to eat.

A few thoughts. Now we know how the ring came to be found far away up the tunnels where Bilbo found it, but we still don’t know how the ring fell unnoticed from Gollum’s finger especially when he is so attuned to it that he cannot bear to be without it for long. Nor do we know why he goes from not being particularly hungry – having just eaten an entire small goblin, apparently – at the beginning of the contest, to surpassingly hungry near the end when begins to poke and prod Bilbo.
V. Are these contradictions legacies of the fact that Tolkien only rewrote this part of the chapter and neglected to fully rethink all the threads of story that he had laid down in the earlier parts?

We definitely come back to Gollum’s point of view now, when he gloatingly whispers that Bilbo’s sword will be “useless, yes quite” once Gollum becomes invisible. “That is what was in his wicked little mind” as he slips off in his boat to his island. Bilbo waits in the darkness, assuming Gollum is gone for good, and considers how he will escape now, when “suddenly he heard a screech.” Gollum is “cursing and wailing away in the gloom…scrabbling here and there, searching and seeking in vain.”
W. Does this exposition about the ring, expressed as part monologue, part narration, work well here or does it feel misshapen or misplaced?

To review the original writing at this point, all of the above from the point where Gollum asks what actually was in Bilbo’s pocket, is actually one paragraph. In it, Gollum admits to himself he will have to give up “the thing…the present we promised”, and he leaves Bilbo to go to his island; Bilbo assumes Gollum is gone for good and “was just thinking of going back up the passage”; and then he hears Gollum “wailing and squeaking away in the gloom… scrabbling here and there, searching and seeking in vain, and turning out his pockets.” In short, all of Gollum’s treacherous thoughts of murder and revenge and all of his reflections on the magical ring, are what was added here. Not only was the original Gollum going to give Bilbo the ring had he been able to, it seems that Bilbo, in the original, was quite prepared to find his own way out.
X. Although we will continue to explore this subject, what do you feel so far about the way in which the tone and dynamics of the chapter’s plot are changing due to the revision?



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CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 16 2012, 4:54pm

Post #2 of 5 (161 views)
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A. Is this the author’s device for allowing Bilbo the leeway to get away with what is about to happen: literally asking a question instead of giving a true riddle? Or is it not an important distinction?

Leeway. The author is pampering Bilbo and giving him all sorts of escapes in the book when he should have been eaten.

B. Why the additional hissing s’s in this speech of Gollum’s? Doesn’t he hiss like this all the time?
He's getting angrier and hissier. Also, Gandalf's later narrative does sum up the scene pretty well. Bilbo's sudden appearance triggers a response from Gollum's buried hobbit self. Over time, the monster in Gollum regains control, so he becomes less friendly, more predatory and animal-like, hissing like a snake.

C. Why all this sudden physicality?
Foreshadowing the coming physical attack/flight. (Good catch!)

D. I find this musing out loud in the middle of a deadly-tense confrontation to be rather contrived and unbelievable. Do you? Why does Bilbo not simply make up a rhyming riddle on the spot, that is based on the ring in his pocket?
When I'm desperate, and not even being faced with being eaten, I say all sorts of random things out loud. It's plausible to me.

E. Is three guesses the traditional number? Why not two, or five, for instance?
It's traditional. I have no idea why. We have two arms, two legs, five fingers on a hand, and three still comes up as the magic number. A comedian once coached other comics on telling stories where actions happen three times with three characters--it's a number that resonates with audiences for some reason. He didn't know why himself, it was just his experience.

F. Does Gollum’s ready acceptance of Bilbo’s question on condition of multiple guesses – along with his repeated use of the phrase “ask a question” in his setting of the rules of the game – indicate that this is an understood variation within the riddle game? Or does his first reaction (“Not fair!”) suggest otherwise?
Gollum's quick capitulation doesn't quite work for me, except I suspect he's already planning on betraying Bilbo and doesn't care what they do next, because it will end in Hobbit Tartare.

G. Why does Gollum accept Bilbo’s question as a riddle, if he doesn’t have to according to the “rules”? Couldn’t he just attack and eat Bilbo as soon as Bilbo asks a question instead of stating a riddle?
Gollum's thoughts, like Bilbo's, are unraveling and becoming irrational. There is some overall logic to this scene. It starts out completely absurd: a polite, civilized hobbit encounters a primitive monster. They have polite banter for awhile according to some civilized rules. But the false civility is doomed to fall apart, and it does, but in stages.

H. Wait… Gollum has pockets? Is this consistent with our mental image of Gollum up to this point?
Not consistent, but fairy tales usually aren't, so I let this slide.

I. Any comments on the items in those pockets? Why does he not remember his ring, which we will soon learn he had “kept in a pouch next his skin” for a time?
He keeps odds and ends in his pockets, but nothing important like The Precious.

J. Is this a joking description of a small child acting out his frustration with some impossible task?
I don't think of a small child here. I envision a half-human, half-monster doing this.

K. What if one of Gollum’s guesses had been right, but the other one had been wrong: “String, or a ring!” Could Bilbo honestly say “wrong a third time” by choosing which one counted as the third?
Bilbo is conscientious and naive enough that I think he would have struggled with that. Since Luck is on his side most of the time, Gollum was doomed to not get the right answer.

L. How does Bilbo know that wicked creatures – goblins, dragons, trolls, etc. – play the riddle game honestly? And in any case, what could typically constitute "cheating" at a riddle game (besides asking a plain question)?
Cheating to me would be to ask a riddle and, when given the correct response, say that it's wrong.

M. “Sacred”, “immense antiquity”, “ancient laws” – what kind of game is this? Are there any other games in the world of The Hobbit that are equally holy?
The cool thing about this game is that it hints at background complexity to this world that makes us ask this question, and we won't get an answer unless it's buried in Tolkien's fragmented notes somewhere. Who made these rules? How are they enforced? How do all races know about them? What other games do they play? Tolkien is a great tease.

U. Hearing of the apparently toxic qualities of the ring, are we supposed to start worrying about Bilbo?
Yes!

A few thoughts. Now we know how the ring came to be found far away up the tunnels where Bilbo found it, but we still don’t know how the ring fell unnoticed from Gollum’s finger especially when he is so attuned to it that he cannot bear to be without it for long. Nor do we know why he goes from not being particularly hungry – having just eaten an entire small goblin, apparently – at the beginning of the contest, to surpassingly hungry near the end when begins to poke and prod Bilbo.
V. Are these contradictions legacies of the fact that Tolkien only rewrote this part of the chapter and neglected to fully rethink all the threads of story that he had laid down in the earlier parts?

In my opinion, the Ring fell from Gollum's finger on purpose the way it left Isildur's hand in the Anduin and the way it jumped onto Frodo's finger in The Prancing Pony. It has a mind and is treacherous. Gollum is both drawn to and repulsed by the Ring and doesn't keep it at his side anymore, so having it lie in the tunnel would feel the same as having it sit in a hole on his island. Speaking for myself, when I get a little angry, I get hungry (though being a lot angry steals my appetite), so I understand why Gollum gets hungry again. Also, if we factor in our knowledge of LOTR, Bilbo awakens the Smeagol in Gollum, and he remembers many things from his past that he's lost and suppressed the memory of. Recalling your past losses fills you with an inner void (sorry, don't mean to be too dramatic, but it does), and in Gollum, that manifested itself as hunger.

W. Does this exposition about the ring, expressed as part monologue, part narration, work well here or does it feel misshapen or misplaced?
I like it. The scene started out as comically absurd, and it's gradually descended into something sinister and scary. Now the writing gets our adrenaline flowing.

Great questions--thanks!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 20 2012, 12:18am

Post #3 of 5 (98 views)
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Repeatedly Bilbo “pinches himself”, and slaps and scratches himself, as he tries to think of a riddle. Meanwhile Gollum is “pawing and poking him.”
C. Why all this sudden physicality?

Doesn't this remind you of two kids sitting in the back seat of a car, one fidgeting while the other is being obnoxious to him? Bilbo is being physically nervous, while Gollum is getting anxious...and maybe trying to see just how "nice and juicy" this creature is.

In his distracted and desperate state, Bilbo “even felt in his pocket” – and finds the ring there. He asks himself “What have I got in my pocket?” out loud, but not as a question to Gollum. According to the narrator, “he was talking to himself.” But Gollum takes this to be the “question”, that is, the riddle, he has been waiting for.
D. I find this musing out loud in the middle of a deadly-tense confrontation to be rather contrived and unbelievable. Do you? Why does Bilbo not simply make up a rhyming riddle on the spot, that is based on the ring in his pocket?

Bilbo is so intent on remembering another riddle and being able to say "I've got one!" that when he chances (if chance it is) upon this recently-acquired object which he has totally forgotten about, that three-word phrase is replaced by the seven-word one.

H. Wait… Gollum has pockets? Is this consistent with our mental image of Gollum up to this point?

Good point! Up to this point, Tolkien makes no mention of what Gollum is wearing - or whether he's wearing anything at all. For that matter, what are the goblins wearing? But now it's made clear that Gollum wears some kind of garment which has the equivalent of pockets.

P. As Gollum sits still, “shivering and whispering”, what is going through his mind? What was going through his mind in the original version?

What's going on in his mind now, is hatred-revenge-murder. He wants to throttle Bilbo, no more playing around then killing - like Shelob's response to Sam's attack. But in the original, we have an agreeable, honest Gollum, which would never do for LotR, oh no precious.

X. Although we will continue to explore this subject, what do you feel so far about the way in which the tone and dynamics of the chapter’s plot are changing due to the revision?

This is a bit scarier that what I think someone like Tolkien would read to his boys at night. This isn't pleasantly spooky-scary: this is the dark bogeyman of nightmares.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




(This post was edited by dernwyn on Aug 20 2012, 12:21am)


sador
Half-elven


Aug 22 2012, 10:07am

Post #4 of 5 (75 views)
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A. Is this the author’s device for allowing Bilbo the leeway to get away with what is about to happen: literally asking a question instead of giving a true riddle?
Yes. I'll expand below.

Or is it not an important distinction?
It is.

B. Why the additional hissing s’s in this speech of Gollum’s? Doesn’t he hiss like this all the time?
I supoose that being angry and hungry, he hisses more.

C. Why all this sudden physicality?
This really gives Bilbo an uncomfortable feeling.

Foreshadowing Beorn?

D. I find this musing out loud in the middle of a deadly-tense confrontation to be rather contrived and unbelievable. Do you?
No. He is trying to find something to make up a riddle of, and inadvertently speaks out loud.

Why does Bilbo not simply make up a rhyming riddle on the spot, that is based on the ring in his pocket?
After Gollum overheard him before - that would be too much of a clue.
And for once in the last five minutes or so, Bilbo has the initiative.

E. Is three guesses the traditional number?
I think so.

Why not two, or five, for instance?
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's Enemy action.

F. Does Gollum’s ready acceptance of Bilbo’s question on condition of multiple guesses – along with his repeated use of the phrase “ask a question” in his setting of the rules of the game – indicate that this is an understood variation within the riddle game? Or does his first reaction (“Not fair!”) suggest otherwise?
The authorities are divided on this; and Gollum is not sure which side is right.

G. Why does Gollum accept Bilbo’s question as a riddle, if he doesn’t have to according to the “rules”?
He is not sure himself.

Couldn’t he just attack and eat Bilbo as soon as Bilbo asks a question instead of stating a riddle?
Why are you so sure failing to ask consists forfeiture? I don't think Gollum is.

H. Wait… Gollum has pockets? Is this consistent with our mental image of Gollum up to this point?
Surprising a bit - but once trolls have pockets (and purses!), why not?

I. Any comments on the items in those pockets?
What's so nasty about shells?

Why does he not remember his ring, which we will soon learn he had “kept in a pouch next his skin” for a time?
An oversight.
Whose? You say.

J. Is this a joking description of a small child acting out his frustration with some impossible task?
No - of an undergraduate student, as Tolkien knew well.

Is this a precursor of Donald Duck?

K. What if one of Gollum’s guesses had been right, but the other one had been wrong: “String, or a ring!” Could Bilbo honestly say “wrong a third time” by choosing which one counted as the third?
Irrelevant. Had the thought of the ring as a possibility, he wouldn't have had any other option.
But it's a nice question for gamers. I suspect the first once should count if the is a noticeable break between the two (as is indicated by the comma), and otherwise Bilbo might have demanded he pick among them.

L. How does Bilbo know that wicked creatures – goblins, dragons, trolls, etc. – play the riddle game honestly?
He believes the stories.

And in any case, what could typically constitute "cheating" at a riddle game (besides asking a plain question)?
Not paying once you've lost; or googling the answer of your iPhone.

M. “Sacred”, “immense antiquity”, “ancient laws” – what kind of game is this?

This puts it miles above the Roman dice, in which participants cheated whenever they could.

Are there any other games in the world of The Hobbit that are equally holy?
Does Oz count?

Quote

"Tally one for me," said the Scarecrow, calmly "What's wrong, my man?" he added, addressing the Soldier.
"Oh! your Majesty -- your Majesty! The City is conquered!" gasped the Royal Army, who was all out of breath.
"This is quite sudden," said the Scarecrow. "But please go and bar all the doors and windows of the palace, while I show this Pumpkinhead how to throw a quoit."


As we will see in Flies and Spiders, Bilbo was proficient in quoits as well.

N. Is Tolkien having fun with children’s tendency to ascribe great antiquity to any custom they learn in the schoolyard from older children? Or how they put great authority in any casual rule their parents lay down, so that exceptions or holes in the rule can be cleverly taken advantage of?
No, not necessarily. Solomon_and_Saturn clearly shows the great importance of this kind of contest.

O. Or, from his professional knowledge, is he referring to apparently childish games and rituals in our everyday lives that we unconsciously regard as sacred and that do in fact go back to the origins of our culture?
Could you give some examples, please? This is too abstract for me.

P. As Gollum sits still, “shivering and whispering”, what is going through his mind?
I think he is still revovering from the shock of losing.

What was going through his mind in the original version?
It says explicitly!


Q. What does Gollum mean by this kind of leading questioning?
Well, had this been a riddle, Bilbo would have provided the answer as a triumph, proving his superiority. I suppose that's what Gollum was accustomed to doing - he is pretty good at the game! Bilbo keeping mum makes him suspicious.

Does he suspect the truth yet?
Subconciously, or else he fears it is a snub-nosed .38.

R. “If you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible…” Why does the voice of the writing slip into the second person (“you”) just here?
To startle the reader.


S. Is all this exposition relevant to The Hobbit, aside from its obvious foreshadowing of events and facts developed only in The Lord of the Rings?
IIRC, Rings are somehow fleetingly associated with Thu in The Lay of Leithan. Need to check that at home.

Did Tolkien rewrite in more depth than he had to?
Yes, as usual.

T. Who is telling this part of the tale, the narrator or Gollum?
Isn't this taken from the first version, in which Gollum tells Bilbo what he intended to give him?
But here it is the narrator. Very clever!

U. Hearing of the apparently toxic qualities of the ring, are we supposed to start worrying about Bilbo?
Yes.

V. Are these contradictions legacies of the fact that Tolkien only rewrote this part of the chapter and neglected to fully rethink all the threads of story that he had laid down in the earlier parts?
Not necessarily. They foreshadow the emergence of the Ring as an independant agent.

W. Does this exposition about the ring, expressed as part monologue, part narration, work well here or does it feel misshapen or misplaced?
I think it works well. And this is the point where I finally believe the new version to be the better one. There is no way Gollum would give such a present, even if his devotion to it did not arise yet.

X. Although we will continue to explore this subject, what do you feel so far about the way in which the tone and dynamics of the chapter’s plot are changing due to the revision?
Oh! I've just answered this above!


"In the morning Bilbo misses breakfast. – is this the most unbelievable part of this chapter?"
- Elven



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Queer Lodgings!


sador
Half-elven


Aug 23 2012, 8:40am

Post #5 of 5 (158 views)
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I''ve remembered correctly [In reply to] Can't Post

(answer to S)

In Reply To
IIRC, Rings are somehow fleetingly associated with Thu in The Lay of Leithan. Need to check that at home.


In line 2146, Thu (the precursor of Sauron) asks Beren, Felagund and their followers: "Who is the giver of gold and rings?" - although the answer there is supposedly Morgoth.

"In the morning Bilbo misses breakfast. – is this the most unbelievable part of this chapter?"
- Elven



The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Queer Lodgings!

 
 

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