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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
To Comic-Con Interviewers: Ask PJ About The Green Tint In FOTR EE Blu-ray
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Kendalf
Rohan

Jul 23 2012, 9:40am

Post #51 of 75 (470 views)
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It'd be very tempting to revisit the trilogy, for sure [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be very happy, too, to see the best of the omitted scenes incorporated but (a) finding the correct slots for them with minimal damage to pacing (b) ensuring there's no consequent repetition / contradiction and (c) asking Shore to score the films for a third time would surely be too much, despite the (further) millions of dollars he'd make...

Still, I could be completely wrong, of course!!! Crazy And, on top of that, maybe his recent confessions that he's in talks with WB to film even more material from the Appendices suggests he may be filming scenes for inclusion in an Ultimate LotR (rather than TH or an as-yet-unannounced "bridge" movie)??


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 24 2012, 5:29pm

Post #52 of 75 (403 views)
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Amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

You really expect me to notice one typo correction in a long email vs. your long post here on the board? And, you characterize my failure to do so as follows?


Quote
As I mentioned, the email is nearly identical to my OP of this thread. I fixed a typo - to 'definitively.' Altaira's failure to mention this is misleading (one hopes not intentionally) because it mischaracterizes the email as being more severe and different than anything folks have seen in my public posts.


All those accusations for failing to notice one of your typos? It would be laughable if I didn't think you were actually serious.

What's really amazing is that you expect people to whom you communicate this way to listen to you and even help you? If you don't recognize this as rude, demanding and unreasonable behaviour then the conversation is over, because I refuse to be on the receiving end of it. I also refuse to let anyone else here be on the receiving end of it. I hope that, at least, is clear.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 24 2012, 5:58pm

Post #53 of 75 (425 views)
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I didn't really hold out any hope [In reply to] Can't Post

that you'd be persuaded by facts. Tongue However, I did hope you'd at least read my post.

I didn't say there was a June 11th article, I said our article (the blu-ray review) was posted at the time it was a controversy which was June of 2011.

TORn attempting to secure an answer: "I checked with independent sources that are definitely in-the-know, and director Peter Jackson and director of photography Andrew Lesnie were directly involved and approved the changes in color to the films." Like any good reporters, we're not going to reveal our exact sources, but let me guarantee that our sources are most definitely in the know. So, yes, I'm letting you know you missed it. Wink

If that doesn't satisfy you and Mr. Platt, then there's nothing else I, or TORn can do as it's evident you're not looking for an answer, just a whipping boy to take out your frustrations. If you still *must* blame TORn for having no more information on the green tint 'controversy' that no one else on the internet seems to care enough to actively pursue since June of 2011, and feel your only resort is to to bully us into responding to two slanderous fans, when there are hundreds who are courteous and asking about more current news, then go ahead, but really, shame on you both for doing so.





Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 24 2012, 6:07pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2012, 7:13pm

Post #54 of 75 (391 views)
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Typo [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, I wasn't clear.

I was referring to your failure to mention my email being a copy of my public post - not noticing a fixed typo. You misrepresented my email in your favor. Being a copy of the OP would have put it into a better light than a secretive rant, but you chose not to.

Being laughable to you, perhaps you could have looked further into my post for the true meaning, but it was my primary responsibility to be clear.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 24 2012, 7:15pm)


Kendalf
Rohan

Jul 24 2012, 7:17pm

Post #55 of 75 (424 views)
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Again with the sarcastic tone from TORn staffers... [In reply to] Can't Post

Altaira, I'm sorry, but I wasn't "persuaded by facts" because you didn't provide any.

"checked with independent sources that are definitely in-the-know and Peter Jackson and director of photography Andrew Lesnie were directly involved and approved the changes in color to the films"

Is that it? That's the overwhelming evidence that's supposed to mean I have egg on my face? One sentence in the depths of two thousand word-plus review? One sentence that reveals or implies nothing that couldn't have been gleaned from two minutes on Google?* One sentence that doesn't even differentiate between the colour-grading and the tint that overlays it? Forgive me if I don't hang my head in shame as you'd clearly like me to. In actual fact, Altaira, I did notice this sentence (I even quoted it) but chose to ignore it because I was convinced you must have had more up your sleeve than that.

I have no desire to fall out with anyone here, to cause any upset or antogonism between fans so I'm just going to say my piece and move on. I have never once blamed TORn for the lack of resolution on this issue. I have never once demanded TORn look into it. I have never once even stated that I expected you to. On the Boards last year, I may very well have suggested you do it, or pleaded with you to do it but in this current thread, all I have ever done is express my own personal disappointment that, as far as I can tell, you didn't, at least not in any remotely meaningful way. That's all. If I am to be routinely slapped down or labelled a "bully" and "slanderous" for doing so, then I am utterly shocked and have to wonder why.

As you are at pains to point out, the Good Ship Green Tint may indeed have sailed long ago for many fans**, but until I see any evidence to the contrary, I will remain convinced that TORn did not take up this issue as rigorously as she might have done. And I will remain disappointed. That's all.

So, you can keep your towel; I won't be needing it.


*Most sincere apologies to Mr Cere if he did indeed succeed in contacting Jackson's people but, for some reason, has chosen to keep his efforts on behalf of fans secret
**Although it's interesting how this thread has around 700 more views than the others on the page, isn't it?


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Jul 24 2012, 7:24pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2012, 7:35pm

Post #56 of 75 (382 views)
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Hearsay [In reply to] Can't Post

Hearsay (people in the know) is part of the complaint and why I asked for a representative to ask Peter Jackson the questions directly. (Imaginative hearsay is also why I had to publish my own email here in this thread).

Also "no one else on the internet seems to care enough to actively pursue since June of 2011" in untrue. Just because the news is "old" (I disagree a year is old) does not mean it is irrelevant because Mr. Jackson or WB could choose to comment at any time and put an end to the questions that persist to this day.

I believe you have a conflict of interest, so perhaps it was a mistake to ask. Our interests are in a facilitated comment from Peter Jackson, not a comment from you or your staff. That is not to say you shouldn't be expected to publish more challenging articles on your home page. If you cannot or will not execute the mission of getting a direct comment from Peter Jackson, that's your choice and I understand. I think we all understand where your bread is buttered. I suppose this attempt failed just as much as yours.

The reason I persist is because of the cynical view that the silence from WB (and PJ) is simply to avoid the responsibility and liability of "faulty" disks, if indeed they are faulty. Secondarily, if this is not true, it's all too easy for WB or PJ to comment (Facebook?) that the tint (not the color grading) was an intentional, artistic choice. But there's been nothing, and that's what makes it look bad.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 24 2012, 7:38pm

Post #57 of 75 (415 views)
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Sigh [In reply to] Can't Post

You do see that TORn is no way culpable for anything WB/PJ may or may not have done regarding this issue, up until now or in future?

That they have provided a platform for you and others to share your concerns is more than praiseworthy and should not be met with disdain, accusations and/or rudeness. As targets for activism on this issue go TORn shouldn't even be on list.

Just because they are thoughtful enough to engage in (what I see as) a fruitless conversation about it does not mean you can make demands of them. TORn has absolutely no say about the issue. Nor do I believe that they should use what precious few opportunities they do have to speak directly to PJ to raise this issue with him. Your concerns should be addressed directly to the people who issued the product or sold it to you.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jul 24 2012, 7:39pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2012, 8:04pm

Post #58 of 75 (373 views)
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Concerns [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, right. TORN has nothing to do with movie or Blu-ray production and is not responsible. For this reason, they should not be targets for activism. That's all very correct. But they did sent representatives to the convention and it was worth a shot to forward a request for comment.

The "disdain" (to use your word) is not for the platform - that's a bit of specious reasoning - but for the Admins' methods in addressing this specific thread (egg? angry? really?). For all other things and administration of this forum (except for not bumping threads with new posts), I have little to no problem.

Who are the "people who issued the product or sold it?" If you mean WB (or PJ who might be waiting for WB permission to comment), that's the problem.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 24 2012, 8:22pm

Post #59 of 75 (386 views)
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Well the conversation has been [In reply to] Can't Post

far from polite from the get go. And there appears to be an underlying assumption that this is TORn's problem, when clearly it is not.

If it were me, I mean if I had bothered to buy the release and became convinced it was defective, I would take it back to the retailer that sold it to me. Let them follow the chain back to the source of the problem. Obviously the seller has more pull with the distributer, and in turn the distributer with the manufacturer, and in turn the manufacturer with the producers. Let them pass the buck among themselves. In the meantime insist that you should get your money back at the point of purchase.

Or adjust your screen settings as others have suggested. It is not the first product that has required tweeking at home. For instance there was a popular game that did not sync properly depending on your screen settings, whether progressive scan or interlaced (don't quote me). There really was no other solution at the time, apart from returning the game and hoping they fixed the glitch on subsequent releases (which they did). But given the variety of equipment some media are played on it really is difficult to account for all problems until after a release (the PC market is notorious for this).

All that aside, I wish you luck with your issue but really do not see any point wasting any more energy trying to get satisfaction from TORn. It truly is outside of their control.


Kendalf
Rohan

Jul 24 2012, 8:28pm

Post #60 of 75 (386 views)
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Thank you, SirDennisC [In reply to] Can't Post

...for replying to my post in a thoroughly civilised manner, as befits a knight of your stature! Smile

"You do see that TORn is in no way culpable...?"
Absolutely, and that is why I have never implied it.

"...they have provided a platform (which) should not be met with disdain, accusations and/or rudeness"
Absolutely, and that is why I have never employed these methods.

"Your concerns should be addressed directly to the people who issued the product"
Absolutely, which is why my first, extensive attempts to secure a response were targeted at Jackson's Facebook page, Lord of the Rings' Facebook page and Warner Home Video's Customer Services. Repeatedly. For months. To no avail.

And which is why we've been reduced to this!!! Crazy Falling out with each other over what was, essentially, a desperate plea (to TORn, who have moved on) at perhaps the wrong time (Comic-Con) arguably too late (a year after the controversy)...

As JW has highlighted in a couple of his posts now, it's hard for TORn, very hard. Like a million other websites and magazines, they have to tread a fine line, making sure their relationships with those in the industry aren't tested to breaking point. Where are the exclusives going to come from then?

But on an immensely admirable site such as this, that quite rightly trumpets its origins as being "Forged by and for fans of JRR Tolkien", I'd have hoped for this huge, yes huge, controversy to have made it on to the Home Page at least once. Just once. Are JW and I really the only people that think this is a completely reasonable thing to have hoped for? Unsure


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Jul 24 2012, 8:44pm

Post #61 of 75 (367 views)
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Speaking as a non TORN staffer and someone who will never have a chat with Jackson. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say that whilst you are not the only people who think this Is important there are many posters here who couldn't give the proverbial simians belongings.

I would also suggest that had I received the email that was sent I would have absolutely no inclination to acquiesce.

I am however disappointed to learn that I could have emailed TORN staffers and pushed that questions of my choosing be asked and a response be arranged for me. Although on reflection perhaps I wouldn't have done that anyway....

LR


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2012, 8:49pm

Post #62 of 75 (366 views)
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Supply Chain & Confusion [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me address this and also use something Altaira wrote that I failed to comment on earlier. I'm not sure even Kendalf pointed this out strongly enough because it appears Altaira still doesn't understand the issue.


In Reply To
Altaira: "I checked with independent sources that are definitely in-the-know, and director Peter Jackson and director of photography Andrew Lesnie were directly involved and approved the changes in color to the films."


This is the same statement that appeared througout the internet after great attempts to contact WB and Peter Jackson. It was easy to find. People "in the know" made the inquirey and that's the word that came back. But it was specious. Why? What folks don't seem to understand is that this does not address the issue. The issue is the Green Tint overlay, not the color grading. I don't know how to make this more clear.

The comment from WB had nothing to do with the Green Tint overlay. This is why the statement Altaira quotes does not resolve the issue. I can see how failing to understand this basic separation of issues will cause great confusion.

WB (or PJ) is attempting to explain away the tint by saying the color grading is per spec of PJ and Lesnie. That's absolutely true. But as we've tried to explain, and I will right here again: it's not about the color grading - it's about the tint overlay. So now if the movies are returned, it's still not clear why. Do retailers take the reason and pass it on? If WB doesn't want to admit a problem, will they care?

Hearing the specious claim from WB that all is at it was intended, fewer people will return the disks because either 1) folks think it's supposed to be that way, or 2) folks who know better figure it's a lost cause when they see WB is not going to take responsibility. And now WB gets to show their report that there were few returns because of their specious statement.

The only way to resolve the issue is for WB or PJ to directly comment about the Green Tint - not the color grading. If they still lie, or if we only think they are lying, so be it. But at least there's final resolution that can't be satisfied by "people in the know" who don't understand the issue.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 24 2012, 8:58pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 24 2012, 8:49pm

Post #63 of 75 (383 views)
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Well now we're getting into a discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

of the constraints under which private media outlets operate in the real world... that happens to be one of the areas I studied at university, though it was some time ago.

Suffice it to say that I find the PTB refreshingly candid on a range of topics that WB and PJ may be uncomfortable discussing. Certainly their integrity and fan credentials are beyond reproach... some of the views that are allowed to see the light of day around here make even me blush when you consider the possible implications such views could have on TORn and the film franchise's relationship.

As a side note, you seem to me to be quite reasonable. I know how disappointing the BR release was for many, and for more than just the green tint issue. It's just that, again, TORn really is the wrong place to look for redress when it comes to the franchise.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jul 24 2012, 8:54pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 24 2012, 8:54pm

Post #64 of 75 (366 views)
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Understood [In reply to] Can't Post

have you looked into how previous cases of defective product were handled? For instance, wasn't there a whack of LOTR EE DVDs that went out that contained the wrong discs, or partial prints (can't remember the details apart from it being a problem with the manufacturer)?


Kendalf
Rohan

Jul 24 2012, 9:58pm

Post #65 of 75 (375 views)
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There are plenty of "replacement programs" [In reply to] Can't Post

...for faulty discs as you can tell from this handily-updated list at Blu-ray.com:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=171207

Of course, they're dependent on the studio admitting there's a problem in the first place!! Crazy They're also not promoted particularly vigorously by the studios! I held off buying Gladiator for a couple of years before I found out they'd caved in to the pressure ages ago and re-mastered it!

Without lists like the one above, and word of mouth on the net, I've no real idea how you find out about these programs...


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Jul 24 2012, 10:01pm)


Patty
Immortal


Jul 25 2012, 1:23am

Post #66 of 75 (326 views)
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My goodness. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've only been on TORn off and on for a while (for many reasons) but I was dismayed to come back and see the renewed upset that the unfortunate picture choices on Fellowship EE Blu has caused among friends.

I appreciate any and all suggestions good folks have given to try to ameliorate the problem with the disc (specially the low tech ones--thanks Kristen!) But Kendalf is right--this admits there is a problem, and as such, I think fans deserve a resolution to the problem. Frustration has been brought about because it really looks like the issue is being dodged by PJ, cause it really would only take a minute to totally clear it up. But there may be more behind this than we know (involving legalities with Warner) so, while I'm not content with the issue--(who wants to have to make changes to settings during a marathon, cause you'd have to put them back to normal for TTT and RotK?) --and I know the Con was probably not the place to ask, I continue to hope someone will be able to address it, and slip in the hint that many of us would like to have a version without the tint made available for us to choose.

Permanent address: Into the West






SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 25 2012, 1:55am

Post #67 of 75 (336 views)
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I suppose it doesn't help that [In reply to] Can't Post

on that site, in the reviews where the green tint is even mentioned, most say it is a non-issue. However, if it is a glitch, you would think that in current copies (ie in the most recent pressings, or whatever they're called) the problem would be cleared up.

It seems to me like PJ made a decision that he thought was an improvement, some people disagree with him, and he refuses to back down. At least grading can be changed for future editions. (And of course if it is a manufacturing glitch a replacement program for affected discs could solve that.)

This perhaps is just be a taste of what's in store if 48fps doesn't fly.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2012, 4:21am

Post #68 of 75 (314 views)
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Simple [In reply to] Can't Post

If anything, it would be a late-transfer problem occurring after the Jackson-approved transfer was produced but before the pressing. i.e., during the final mastering process for production. That's my guess. It is unlikely to be a physical pressing problem. To clear it up would involve admitting a mistake, initiating a replacement program, and eating the cost. Which is why WB is suspect.

If it were an artistic choice, I think Jackson would not be shy about saying so. He has not been shy about defending his artistic choices in the past. Yet he and his in-the-knows have not mentioned the tint. Only the color grading. Not the same thing.

The 48 FPS issue is a different animal. It's not a mistake. It's an artistic choice. As developers say to folks who complain about features in software: It's not a bug, it's intended behavior.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 25 2012, 4:24am)


Patty
Immortal


Jul 25 2012, 4:26am

Post #69 of 75 (321 views)
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"If it were an artistic choice, I think Jackson would not be shy about saying so" [In reply to] Can't Post

very true.

It's not a non-issue for me, and I'm pretty easy - going and non demanding when it comes to movies. Heck, I didn't even have a big deal with the theatrical Blu-ray, and the picture quality critics were all over it! But this dark overlay on Fellowship needs to be fixed.

Permanent address: Into the West






SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 25 2012, 4:57am

Post #70 of 75 (305 views)
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Thank goodness we have somewhere to air such concerns [In reply to] Can't Post

Not having seen the BR (I did have a chance to pick up the set for $5 recently but passed on it) I can only take your word for it.

I really do hope that a good will gesture of some sort is made. It may have to wait until the revenue stream picks up after The Hobbit release... a lot of money has been going out on this franchise, not much coming in (yet). Perhaps they will do something along the lines of what Kendalf pointed to at the Blueray site?

In the meantime since we are all fairly reasonable people -- and dedicated fans -- I think we can agree that this has absolutely nothing to do with TORn or anyone here.

And hey, on the plus side it's not as if PJ is unaware of TORn or what is said around here. But the guy has to prioritize right now. Again thinking of what Kendalf said about Gladiator, perhaps when things settle down a bit, a couple years down the road say, they will quietly do the replacement thingy.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jul 25 2012, 4:59am)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2012, 5:12am

Post #71 of 75 (304 views)
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Replacement v. Dipping [In reply to] Can't Post

If it is a matter of years, it is much more likely that a version without the tint overlay will magically appear on the 2015 triple platinum double deluxe collector's extended edition of The Middle Earth Saga (The Hobbit + The Lord of the Rings) - scale model of Middle Earth inside the box, painted in 24 carat gold. That is how a studio saves money, saves face, and makes money all at the same time without actually admitting there was ever a mistake. Tint? What tint?


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jul 25 2012, 5:15am)


Patty
Immortal


Jul 25 2012, 5:18am

Post #72 of 75 (296 views)
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Yes, he's busy. But [In reply to] Can't Post

it wouldn't have taken long to make a statement about it. Which leads me again to the conclusion his hands are tied in some way by Warner Brothers, perhaps for the revenue reasons you mention.

I hope we will get a redo. Otherwise, I'll be like whoever it was that says they just watch the Fellowship dvd and then the blu of TTT and RotK. I'm planning a marathon for the first part of December--it would be nice to have a new Fellowship by then.Angelic

Permanent address: Into the West






SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 25 2012, 5:19am

Post #73 of 75 (303 views)
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It is unfortunate when this sort of thing happens [In reply to] Can't Post

anyone who has been paying attention to me over the years will know that I am no fan of what are considered to be legitimate corporate practices. In fact I think you and I have gotten into such a discussion before (regarding The Hobbit Pub I think).

Though I do not have the heart for such a discussion just now, again I truly hope that you and others who share your concern receive satisfaction on this issue. It seems to me that persistence combined with truer aim will pay off eventually.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jul 25 2012, 5:25am

Post #74 of 75 (322 views)
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Well we do know that PJ cares what fans think [In reply to] Can't Post

what he is prepared or able to do about it is a separate issue.

On a semi-related note, I was going through a bin of LOTR action figures yesterday and the sound fx on my son's cave troll still work after all these years being out of the box. However his Lurtz figure with the flailing arm action broke at the waist. (There was a surprisingly thin band of resin in the crotch region holding the thing together. Laugh)


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jul 25 2012, 5:27am)


Patty
Immortal


Jul 25 2012, 5:52am

Post #75 of 75 (373 views)
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Several of my Burger King action figures still work! [In reply to] Can't Post

*speak friend, and enter * for one.Smile

Permanent address: Into the West





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