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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD - The Sorrow of Gimli

Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 11 2012, 2:56pm

Post #1 of 15 (878 views)
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SCOD - The Sorrow of Gimli Can't Post




AKA: Goodness me. It Worked! Smile Having changed my browser and followed Magpie's excellent guide (thank you!) I have uploaded an inline image

Hi everybody! Now that I have more time on my hands, I thought that I would attempt my first SCoD. So here goes. Feel free to answer any or all of the following:

- Book v. Film – In the book, Gloin tells the Council that no word has been heard from Moria for a long time,
‘that was nigh on thirty years ago. For while we had news and it seemed good...then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since’.
Bearing this in mind, it seems that Gimli should have been prepared for the fall of Moria. In contrast, film-Gimli seems to know nothing of this. How much of a suprise is the decline of Moria? We know that Gandalf suspected – was Gimli really unaware?

- Are there any people out there who hadn’t read the books? What were your impressions/expectations of Moria? Did the film reference to ‘my cousin Balin’ provide non-book readers with enough detail to appreciate the import of this encounter with the remnants of the dwarven colony in Moria?

- Do you feel that this segment gave a richer history to the dwarves, or was it a distraction from the main action?

- Any ideas on what the star design in the front of the dwarf’s helmet is? Significant?

- Any other thoughts? I would love to hear opinions on the inclusion of the Watcher as well.
It can’t be OT if I suggest it hey? Wink


Thanks everybody!






"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song

(This post was edited by Nightingale on Jun 11 2012, 2:58pm)


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jun 11 2012, 7:28pm

Post #2 of 15 (472 views)
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woo go Nightingale, awesome awesome SCOD :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Book v. Film – In the book, Gloin tells the Council that no word has been heard from Moria for a long time,
‘that was nigh on thirty years ago. For while we had news and it seemed good...then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since’.
Bearing this in mind, it seems that Gimli should have been prepared for the fall of Moria. In contrast, film-Gimli seems to know nothing of this. How much of a suprise is the decline of Moria? We know that Gandalf suspected – was Gimli really unaware?

Hmmm well, I think he might have had lots of hope in his heart that the Kingdom of Balin was still ok, a fool's hope to be sure. . . . I think PJ may have exaggerated Gimli's naivety in this situation though. However, why not have Gimli react so extremely? I think it's fine, and John Rhys-Davies pulls it off well IMO.

- Are there any people out there who hadn’t read the books? What were your impressions/expectations of Moria? Did the film reference to ‘my cousin Balin’ provide non-book readers with enough detail to appreciate the import of this encounter with the remnants of the dwarven colony in Moria?

N/A (lol)

- Do you feel that this segment gave a richer history to the dwarves, or was it a distraction from the main action?

No way, it was absolutely brilliant to have the depth of Dwarven history and culture... I even would have liked more maybe Tongue (Biiiiig Dwarf fan here)

- Any ideas on what the star design in the front of the dwarf’s helmet is? Significant?

Well, I think that it's the Star of Durin. maybe not... I know Durin's symbol has an anvil and hammer at least... though maybe I'm wrong again hehe.

- Any other thoughts? I would love to hear opinions on the inclusion of the Watcher as well.
It can’t be OT if I suggest it hey?

Thanksssss Nightingale for a great first ever SCOD ;)


Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Chopsta123
Gondor


Jun 12 2012, 12:13am

Post #3 of 15 (462 views)
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this is the perfect first scod for me :) [In reply to] Can't Post

- Book v. Film – In the book, Gloin tells the Council that no word has been heard from Moria for a long time,
‘that was nigh on thirty years ago. For while we had news and it seemed good...then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since’.
Bearing this in mind, it seems that Gimli should have been prepared for the fall of Moria. In contrast, film-Gimli seems to know nothing of this. How much of a suprise is the decline of Moria? We know that Gandalf suspected – was Gimli really unaware?
I can only answer from a movie-only perspective. I suspect it was done deliberately to increase the shock in the audience that they have landed in a trap. The surprise is big!

- Are there any people out there who hadn’t read the books? What were your impressions/expectations of Moria? Did the film reference to ‘my cousin Balin’ provide non-book readers with enough detail to appreciate the import of this encounter with the remnants of the dwarven colony in Moria?
I think they could have explained the importance of Balin was a little bit better, maybe with a reference to Bilbo's journey or something similar. I started really appreciating the importance of Balin with the production of the Hobbit and feel much more for Gimli than in my earliest viewings. Hope that makes sense Smile

- Do you feel that this segment gave a richer history to the dwarves, or was it a distraction from the main action?
It did give a richer history but I feel there could have been more... (another Dwarf fan here)

- Any ideas on what the star design in the front of the dwarf’s helmet is? Significant?
No clue, but stars usually mean a higher ranks in the military...


- Any other thoughts? I would love to hear opinions on the inclusion of the Watcher as well.
ok you wanted something OT so here goes --> LOTR Character Elimination Game has started XD


http://ce-games.forumotion.com/
The forum for the LOTR Character Elimination Game!

(This post was edited by Chopsta123 on Jun 12 2012, 12:18am)


One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Jun 12 2012, 2:51pm

Post #4 of 15 (444 views)
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I've always gotten the impression [In reply to] Can't Post

that dwarves are a more vain and overconfident race. They don't trouble themselves with news and communication, because they only assume the best. That, and as private as they are from others, so are they from each other, perhaps (not to say they would object the company of friends and kin).

Having said that, I wouldn't expect any less from Gimli's boasting and ignorance, as he hasn't considered any sort of danger to be evident in Moria (on account of his natural dwarfish behavior).

So yes, I'd say he was genuinely unaware of what was really happening.

FOTR 10th Anniversary Music Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33xJU3AIwsg

"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 12 2012, 3:12pm

Post #5 of 15 (379 views)
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Thanks Xanaseb [In reply to] Can't Post

By and large, I agree with you that Gimli's reaction is only natural. I just think that it is a little disorientating for an audience who have been thrown from an expectation of a warm welcome to a riddle, a kraken, a sinister trap, and now we are given this. My head was spinning at this point and I was supposed to know what was going on! Laugh

Star of Durin is as good a guess as any: I hadn't thought of that.

I admit to having no idea, but thought that someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of the film trivia might come in and go "Aha! I remember where it was mentioned in an article/commentary/side remark that that's a...". Perhaps I should check the new Mathom-house.




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 12 2012, 3:19pm

Post #6 of 15 (372 views)
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Thank you for your input [In reply to] Can't Post

it's interesting that you were still suprised by Moria. I had forgotten almost all of the book by the time I watched the film, so was in almost the same position as you. I thought that tension was built well with the debate on the mountain and the "delved to greedily and too deep" voiceover. I definitely knew something fishy was going on by the time Pippin started throwing stones into the lake. Were you still expecting roaring fires and malt beer?

Your observations on the dwarves certainly make sense. I remember feeling a much greater affection for Gimli when I remembered that he was the son of Gloin of the Hobbit. His family really need to stop helping hobbits don't they - it gets them into far too much trouble! Laugh




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 12 2012, 3:22pm

Post #7 of 15 (388 views)
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Interesting character observation [In reply to] Can't Post

which now that you mention it, explains the situation well. I hadn't really attributed his actions to his 'cultural character' as it were, but it definitely applies here.




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2012, 1:47am

Post #8 of 15 (397 views)
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Congratulations on your inaugural SCOD! [In reply to] Can't Post

- Book v. Film – In the book, Gloin tells the Council that no word has been heard from Moria for a long time,
‘that was nigh on thirty years ago. For while we had news and it seemed good...then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since’.
Bearing this in mind, it seems that Gimli should have been prepared for the fall of Moria. In contrast, film-Gimli seems to know nothing of this. How much of a suprise is the decline of Moria? We know that Gandalf suspected – was Gimli really unaware?

Well, One Ringer's cultural explanation is interesting. I was thinking of a more psychological explanation, but it could tie in with the cultural one. I was thinking specifically of denial. You can have all the facts telling you one thing, but still refuse to believe them if doing so means you have to acknowledge something awful. Gimli may have had every reason to suspect things weren't going well, were in fact catastrophic, but had to see it with his own eyes. Plus, even if he had been prepared for the worst, seeing what had become of his people, especially individuals he knew personally, would be very traumatic.

- Are there any people out there who hadn’t read the books? What were your impressions/expectations of Moria? Did the film reference to ‘my cousin Balin’ provide non-book readers with enough detail to appreciate the import of this encounter with the remnants of the dwarven colony in Moria?

N/A

- Do you feel that this segment gave a richer history to the dwarves, or was it a distraction from the main action?

Yes, I think it helped the viewer appreciate Dwarf history and culture more, especially the EE where Gandalf explains the importance of mithril.


- Any ideas on what the star design in the front of the dwarf’s helmet is? Significant?

Don't know, but it's interesting. I hadn't noticed it before. Hmmm...it is a large star which seems, like a previous poster (sorry, can't remember who) stated, like it might have military significance. The whole helmet is much less ornate than Gimli's. Is that because the film makers figured it wouldn't be seen long enough to worry with? That doesn't seem likely considering all the attention to detail that is given to things no matter how briefly they may be seen on screen. Again, hmmm.

- Any other thoughts? I would love to hear opinions on the inclusion of the Watcher as well. It can’t be OT if I suggest it hey? Wink

Good choice of screen cap!


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2012, 2:08am

Post #9 of 15 (381 views)
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Yep zarabia, I have to agree with the 'denial' factor... and I partly disagree with One Ringer's summation of Dwarven character lol [In reply to] Can't Post

vanity isn't their most noticeable feature IMO. It's been ages since I've read LOTR, but I know that dwarves, whilst maybe being proud-hearted I don't think they're over-confident.... I may be just generalising though I have no idea... but I've never thought Dwarves to be like that. hehe.

I really must remember the differences between book Gimli and film Gimli, as I have completely forgotten.... (!)...

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2012, 2:44am

Post #10 of 15 (387 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to say proud and stubborn are more dwarf traits than over-confident or vain... but thats just my assumption


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 13 2012, 10:00am

Post #11 of 15 (342 views)
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Thanks for your contribution [In reply to] Can't Post

Denial does seem like an obvious and probable explanation.

Perhaps the helmet is less ornate because he was of a lower rank or status. After all, I would imagine that Gimli wasn't short of gold after Gloin's adventure. Tongue




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song

(This post was edited by Nightingale on Jun 13 2012, 10:00am)


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 13 2012, 10:04am

Post #12 of 15 (339 views)
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I think you may be right [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that pride and stubborn-ness are characteristic of dwarves, and that (like all of us), these positive traits can become the (arguably) negative ones of vanity and over-confidence in certain situations, like Thorin and the siege of the mountain in the Hobbit.




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


Nightingale
Rohan


Jun 13 2012, 10:06am

Post #13 of 15 (348 views)
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Well thanks everyone! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's good to see we have got a good debate and discussion going on here, and thank you for making my first SCoD a success.

Head on over to the next one which I will put up a little later for a very interesting tableau...




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


dclary
The Shire

Jun 15 2012, 3:33pm

Post #14 of 15 (319 views)
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My take on it [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
How much of a suprise is the decline of Moria? We know that Gandalf suspected – was Gimli really unaware?

Agree with the other posters. Dwarves tend to be very long-lived and insular. A 30-year lapse of communication could mean many things -- not necessarily utter doom.


Quote
Are there any people out there who hadn’t read the books? What were your impressions/expectations of Moria? Did the film reference to ‘my cousin Balin’ provide non-book readers with enough detail to appreciate the import of this encounter with the remnants of the dwarven colony in Moria?

JRD's passion in describing the colony and his relatives there was more than enough.


Quote
- Any ideas on what the star design in the front of the dwarf’s helmet is? Significant?

In the book, they talk about the stars of Durin, which appeared in Mirrormere when Durin first gazed upon it. Perhaps an ornmental reference to this (it appears on the runic outline of the back door, as well).


BeornBerserker
Lorien

Jun 17 2012, 4:20pm

Post #15 of 15 (484 views)
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dramatic [In reply to] Can't Post

In the movie I just thought his reaction was mostly to drive home to the audience the peril in transiting Moria and why Gandalf avoided it. Now they were stuck in a situation of extreme danger. More dramatic.

 
 

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