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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD 39: The lighter side of Boromir

zarabia
Tol Eressea


May 30 2012, 12:19am

Post #1 of 23 (864 views)
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SCOD 39: The lighter side of Boromir Can't Post

Welcome to the first of this week’s SC’sOD!







Here we see a different side of Boromir’s personality and character. The following questions overlap quite a bit, so feel free to answer them however works best for you.


How do you feel (did you feel watching the film) witnessing the lighter side of Boromir? Is it jarring after the previous scenes where he is so seemingly intense, brash, and arrogant…? Does this depiction make him seem more well-rounded or does it seem to conflict too much with what we’ve seen so far?


If you read the book first, does this side of Boromir’s personality fit in with the image you had of him? If not, is the difference good or bad?


Are we as viewers meant to believe he is sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits; is he sincere???



Now the requisite scale question: It would be difficult to do this scene with the actors, but the scale doubles look a bit obvious, at least to me. Do you think this scene was handled well (scale wise) or do you think it was distracting?


As always, any other thoughts are welcome!



Defender of Nogrod
Registered User


May 30 2012, 7:37am

Post #2 of 23 (428 views)
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First post! :) [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you feel (did you feel watching the film) witnessing the lighter side of Boromir? Is it jarring after the previous scenes where he is so seemingly intense, brash, and arrogant…? Does this depiction make him seem more well-rounded or does it seem to conflict too much with what we’ve seen so far?

No, i think it fits. It's a way of endearing him to you, for one thing. It is jarring, but in a good way, i think. :)

If you read the book first, does this side of Boromir’s personality fit in with the image you had of him? If not, is the difference good or bad?

Just what i said before. I could imagine Boromir having lighter moments. The book doesn't dwell on that sort of thing. Because it's an epic it dwells on the main important bits. (IMO)

Are we as viewers meant to believe he is sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits; is he sincere???

I think he's sincere. He becomes attached to them, especially Merry and Pippin. I believe that he isn't just protecting them at Amon Hen because Aragorn asked him to, I think he genuinely is worried about them.


Now the requisite scale question: It would be difficult to do this scene with the actors, but the scale doubles look a bit obvious, at least to me. Do you think this scene was handled well (scale wise) or do you think it was distracting?

I dunno. I don't look too carefully for that stuff. I generally get too carried away with the film :)

Yavanna: "Eru is bountiful, now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."

Aule: "Nonetheless they will have need of wood."


Nightingale
Rohan


May 30 2012, 9:48am

Post #3 of 23 (454 views)
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Ooh, this is a good one. [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you feel (did you feel watching the film) witnessing the lighter side of Boromir? Is it jarring after the previous scenes where he is so seemingly intense, brash, and arrogant…? Does this depiction make him seem more well-rounded or does it seem to conflict too much with what we’ve seen so far?

Gosh, I really need to start thinking about these films more. You are doing a great job bringing out aspects I hadn't considered before! I think (combined with my reading of the book), I felt that this fitted with my idea of Boromir well. To my mind, there is an element of Boromir which is impulsive and almost childlike when compared to his brother Faramir. I can imagine him being far more of the outdoors-and-action type when he was younger, enjoying practicing fighting. I can see him being carried along by the enthusiasm of the hobbits in a kind of "Hey, we have five minutes, I'm bored, why don't I teach you to swordfight" kind of way. It rounds out the character nicely, and hey, we have to develop some sympathy with him before he 'departs'.

OK, so now I'm going a bit too wide with my interpretations. Laugh I reckon he's sincere.


Now the requisite scale question: It would be difficult to do this scene with the actors, but the scale doubles look a bit obvious, at least to me. Do you think this scene was handled well (scale wise) or do you think it was distracting?

I can't believe that I never really realised that scale doubles were being used here. In my opinion it was edited together very well.
In my defence, I was busy trying to work out whether the numbers that Boromir was giving the hobbits corresponded to any of the fencing positions that I knew.

I was also picking myself up off the floor after Aragorn's grin a moment earlier. *thud* Sly

Any other thoughts?

Can anyone shed any more light on the numbers? Are they numbers at all? To my mind, they are "two...four" or possibly "two...six" which may make sense, (I can remember where four and six are, but two is eluding me).




"You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me" - C. S. Lewis

"That line between the earth and sky came beckoning to me..." - Laurie's Song


Oscarilbo
Lorien


May 30 2012, 2:35pm

Post #4 of 23 (438 views)
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Well, personally... [In reply to] Can't Post

I like very much that the hobbits make me feel different emotions about them depending on the moment. For example, this shot, as you say, they are obviously scale doubles, and that make them look so cute, you want to play with them, protect them. But there are other moments, more serious and dramatic, where you prefer that cuteness almost completely off (at least as a filmaker), and you may notice that in many of those scenes they used the main actors with the help of green or blue screen.

So... in the end, they are always our same hobbits of course, but different techniques also works for different impressions of them as well.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on May 30 2012, 2:37pm)


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


May 30 2012, 4:10pm

Post #5 of 23 (401 views)
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ooh nice :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Love this shot zarabia :D

How do you feel (did you feel watching the film) witnessing the lighter side of Boromir? Is it jarring after the previous scenes where he is so seemingly intense, brash, and arrogant…? Does this depiction make him seem more well-rounded or does it seem to conflict too much with what we’ve seen so far?


Felt great. He seemed that his inner child was coming out. I certainly think it makes him more well-rounded. I think it's fine how PJ & co. wrote it


If you read the book first, does this side of Boromir’s personality fit in with the image you had of him? If not, is the difference good or bad?


Maybe not so much, as he's always very proud and stern etc. but he's not as much of a contrast as book-->film Aragorn


Are we as viewers meant to believe he is sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits; is he sincere???


O.O I don't believe you said that! ! Of course he's sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits!!! He's not some meanie who's hell-bent on the ring like Saruman or anything. Tongue Boromir has to be my favourite film character after watching them so many times... he's just so lamentable and I feel that he's just a man finding his way.


Now the requisite scale question: It would be difficult to do this scene with the actors, but the scale doubles look a bit obvious, at least to me. Do you think this scene was handled well (scale wise) or do you think it was distracting?


Nah I don't think it's distracting unless it's really obvious. One of the only places where it had the distracting effect was in the Grey Havens really. Maybe a few otehr places too.


As always, any other thoughts are welcome!


Just love this cap, and this scene SmileCool


Catch it, catch it, catch it! Dropped it... ...
Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

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Darkstone
Immortal


May 30 2012, 5:02pm

Post #6 of 23 (424 views)
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The Faramirization of Boromir? [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you feel (did you feel watching the film) witnessing the lighter side of Boromir? Is it jarring after the previous scenes where he is so seemingly intense, brash, and arrogant…? Does this depiction make him seem more well-rounded or does it seem to conflict too much with what we’ve seen so far?

It’s an extension of his initial look of astonishment at Frodo’s “I will take the ring” and his subsequent affectionate, if patronizing, address of Frodo as “little one”.


If you read the book first, does this side of Boromir’s personality fit in with the image you had of him? If not, is the difference good or bad?

Boromir’s protectiveness of the hobbits was in the book:

”‘But I wanted rest and sleep, Bilbo’, Frodo answered with an effort, when he felt himself shaken, and he came back painfully to wakefulness. Boromir had lifted him off the ground out of a nest of snow.
`This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir. `It is useless to sit here until the snow goes over our heads. We must do something to save ourselves.’”

And:

“`But how are we to get down there, even if you have cut through the drift?' said Pippin, voicing the thought of all the hobbits.
'Have hope!' said Boromir. 'I am weary, but I still have some strength left, and Aragorn too. We will bear the little folk. The others no doubt will make shift to tread the path behind us. Come, Master Peregrin! I will begin with you.'
He lifted up the hobbit. 'Cling to my back! I shall need my arms' he said and strode forward. Aragorn with Merry came behind. Pippin marvelled at his strength, seeing the passage that he had already forced with no other tool than his great limbs. Even now, burdened as he was, he was widening the track for those who followed, thrusting the snow aside as he went.”

As usual, many of PJ’s “invented” scenes are inspired distillations from other parts of the book.


Are we as viewers meant to believe he is sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits; is he sincere???

This is a character moment where everyone is letting their hair down, being themselves. Frodo is the overwhelmed, almost detached, observer; Sam is mothering Frodo; Aragorn and Boromir are building mutual respect with each other in jointly training the hobbits; M&P are bonding with Aragorn and Boromir, resulting in the latter giving his life for them at Amon Hen, and the former starting the chase of The Three Hunters that ends with Mortensen breaking his toe on an Uruk’s helmet; and then you have the Elf and the Dwarf standing with their backs to each other on opposite sides of the camp, with an ever thoughtful Gandalf caught in the middle.

Great character moments!


Now the requisite scale question: It would be difficult to do this scene with the actors, but the scale doubles look a bit obvious, at least to me. Do you think this scene was handled well (scale wise) or do you think it was distracting?

Oscarilbo’s take on this is brilliant!


As always, any other thoughts are welcome!

A chicken salad sandwich makes an excellent breakfast.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


May 30 2012, 5:21pm

Post #7 of 23 (425 views)
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Real people aren't well written [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't have coherent life stories that makes a straight line through all the important dots from A till Z. Neither do we have coherent personalities. Therefore also characters whose personality is too unified, too clean, to well focused around one central idea; well, they feel false. That arrogance and tenderness can exist in the same character is not only plausible, but desireable.

It's in perfect accordance with Boromir's character in the book, too. There he was revealed to have been taken care of his little brother since they were young, even though their father - whom he loved too - saw little in him. That Faramir loved Boromir so dearly is the best defence he has, IMO. Don't say he is biased because he's a brother. As a sister I can tell siblings don't automatically just love each other, it must come from real admiration and closeness as always.

In TvTropesian we would say that Boromir is "Licked by the Dog", the role of Dog being given to Faramir in the book and to Merry and Pippin in the movie. It's good that they managed to show more of the depth this character has, even though they didn't have any change of including his backstory to the narrative.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Nuradar
Rohan


May 30 2012, 6:54pm

Post #8 of 23 (390 views)
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it shows Boromir's true nature [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never once felt that Boromir was arrogant. Brash, yes. Intense, very. But I don't think arrogance ever enters the equation. His desire to use the ring, IMO, was born from good intentions. He was just too unwise to see how it would consume him or his father.

I really like this scene because I think it reveals his true nature. His introduction to us in the Council of Elrond scene should not be our lasting impression of him, or at least not our only impression. Here, Boromir is more relaxed and he is able to be himself - caring, helpful, and patient. Seeing this more human side of Boromir makes his death more painful. IMO, Boromir is one of the most tragic characters, if not the most tragic of the whole story.

Excellent screencap, zarabia. Thanks,

Nuradar


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


May 30 2012, 7:07pm

Post #9 of 23 (399 views)
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All applause for Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, I will, right now.


Quote
This is a character moment where everyone is letting their hair down, being themselves. Frodo is the overwhelmed, almost detached, observer; Sam is mothering Frodo; Aragorn and Boromir are building mutual respect with each other in jointly training the hobbits; M&P are bonding with Aragorn and Boromir, resulting in the latter giving his life for them at Amon Hen, and the former starting the chase of The Three Hunters that ends with Mortensen breaking his toe on an Uruk’s helmet; and then you have the Elf and the Dwarf standing with their backs to each other on opposite sides of the camp, with an ever thoughtful Gandalf caught in the middle.


Never noticed any of that (though my brain probably did, as was intended.)

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Darkstone
Immortal


May 31 2012, 5:01pm

Post #10 of 23 (335 views)
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No need, but thanks! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



zarabia
Tol Eressea


May 31 2012, 11:45pm

Post #11 of 23 (309 views)
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Welcome, Defender of Nogrod! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad your first post was hereSmile



Quote

I could imagine Boromir having lighter moments. The book doesn't dwell on that sort of thing. Because it's an epic it dwells on the main important bits. (IMO)



That makes sense. That's one of the advantages of film, in just a few seconds, you can add detail and dimension that might take more time or interfere with flow in a novel. But then again, it can work the other way around, too.


zarabia
Tol Eressea


May 31 2012, 11:55pm

Post #12 of 23 (315 views)
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Not going too wide at all [In reply to] Can't Post

I had never thought of Boromir being more childlike than Faramir before, but, now that I think of it, I agree.

I had also not picked up on the numbers when he's teaching M&P fencing. It does seem like fencing positions. After all, they had Bob Anderson around to teach Sean Bean how to teach sword play.Smile

Also:

Quote

I was also picking myself up off the floor after Aragorn's grin a moment earlier. *thud* Sly



Oh yeah! Wink


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 12:01am

Post #13 of 23 (316 views)
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One reason I love SCOD [In reply to] Can't Post

I get new insight on things that I've taken for granted for so long. I had never considered that the different scale techniques might be used for anything other than technical reasons. But it definitely makes sense that the use of the hobbit size doubles would bring out a protective feeling in viewers.


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 12:20am

Post #14 of 23 (310 views)
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Don't be mad at me, my friend Xanaseb! ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

    

Quote

O.O I don't believe you said that! ! Of course he's sincere in his friendship with the Hobbits!!! He's not some meanie who's hell-bent on the ring like Saruman or anything. Tongue Boromir has to be my favourite film character after watching them so many times... he's just so lamentable and I feel that he's just a man finding his way.



I only brought it up because of something PJ said in the commentary. Okay, I admit that while reading the book, I kept thinking, "Ohhh, don't trust him!" But in the film, I saw that Boromir is a good, decent man who is tempted by the Ring because he wants so desperately to please his father and protect his people. That's why I was surprised when I heard during the commentary - during the scene where he's urging Gandalf and Aragorn to go through Gondor rather than continue through the snow - that Boromir was using his concern for the hobbits as an excuse to get the ring back to his home turf. PJ didn't say if this meant that Boromir was conscious of this deception or if the ring was playing on his subconscious. So in asking this question, I just wanted to get other insight on his motives. I still think that, even if at first Boromir was only thinking of trying to get his hands on the ring, long before the end, his love for the hobbits was sincere.


(This post was edited by zarabia on Jun 1 2012, 12:23am)


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 12:38am

Post #15 of 23 (327 views)
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His protectiveness is in the book for those who will see it :) [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Quote

As usual, many of PJ’s “invented” scenes are inspired distillations from other parts of the book.



You are so right. It was only after seeing the film that I noticed these revelations of Boromir's true character. On first reading the books before seeing the films, all I could see was the foreshadowing of Boromir's downfall. I kept wondering why they would trust him because all I could see was his eagerness to get the ring to Gondor. The film focused on what I think Tolkien intended - Boromir as a Good Man who is flawed; not a sneaky, self-serving man who has some good in him which is how I saw him before the film.

I'll have to take your word on chicken salad sandwich as a good breakfast. I'm not so fond of chicken salad even at lunchCrazy


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 12:53am

Post #16 of 23 (293 views)
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So true! [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a quote - I forget who said it - that "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" or something to that effect. I think it's true of a person's philosophies as well as characters in novels.

The fact that Boromir saw Faramir's worth and cared for him so much is definitely an indication of Boromir's basic goodness. It was nice to see those moments between them in the EE.


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 1:05am

Post #17 of 23 (321 views)
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I'm afraid that's the impression I held throughout the book [In reply to] Can't Post

So, yes, these scenes were so important in showing the real Boromir. And not only did seeing this side of him make his death more painful, it also made Merry and Pippen's reaction much more poignant. Yes, tragic all the way around.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jun 1 2012, 1:36am

Post #18 of 23 (301 views)
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LOL I was doing it (partly) tongue in cheek [In reply to] Can't Post

TongueTongueTongueTongue

never would I get mad at you zarabia SmileSmile

but seriously, yeah you're right, it's great to explore such things lolol. I was simply messing around ;) :P


Catch it, catch it, catch it! Dropped it... ...
Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!


(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Jun 1 2012, 1:38am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jun 2 2012, 7:27pm

Post #19 of 23 (288 views)
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Here is my view... [In reply to] Can't Post

1 At the council Boromir is Stunned to meet Aragorn who will supplant
him in Gondor...since at least for me, Boromir ..
....is the defacto Ruler since
Denathor is a Recluse
stareing into his
Palantir.
(I so wish PJ would have put one simple shot of him doing that)

2 HIS lifelong job has been the Protector of his People to the point
...of never taking a wife.

Seems much of Boromir,s dialogue was
"Cocerning Hobbits"

So I feel HE is being a father-figure
Protector to all the 4 Hobbits.

Later told by
his line
"This will be the death of the Hobbits' in the huge Snowdrift.

3. To summerize. At least for me.
If the Fellowship is afamily.

Gandalf is the Grandfather... wisest and experienced of Anyone in ME

Legolas is their Long-Bowed Scout with his keen eyesight...
their........ First line of defense.

Gimli is the " crazy Uncle in the Basement no one to talk about?"

A&B are both, FatherFigures withThe greatest of Warrior skills.

and of course the Hobbits are their Children
Way out of their element
and desparate for all
the protection
from ANY
Adults
on such
desparate Mission.
(Without much of a chance for success.)

BOMBY


zarabia
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2012, 7:05am

Post #20 of 23 (258 views)
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Fellowship as a family...interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Quote

3. To summerize. At least for me.
If the Fellowship is afamily.

Gandalf is the Grandfather... wisest and experienced of Anyone in ME

Legolas is their Long-Bowed Scout with his keen eyesight...
their........ First line of defense.

Gimli is the " crazy Uncle in the Basement no one to talk about?"

A&B are both, FatherFigures withThe greatest of Warrior skills.

and of course the Hobbits are their Children



Actually, I've always felt that Aragorn has a motherly aspect to him. I don't mean that in any way to demean his masculinity - he's all man in my bookWinkAngelic -but he has a maternal, gentle quality in the way he sometimes deals with the hobbits. I think especially of the scene after they have left Moria, and Frodo and Sam who are hurt, lag behind. His concern is so tender.

"Gimli is the crazy uncle..." LOLLaugh


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Jun 7 2012, 2:00am

Post #21 of 23 (233 views)
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Bonding [In reply to] Can't Post

I always liked this scene quite a lot, even if the ground-rolling, hair-tousling laughter feels a tiny bit forced.

I notice a pattern throughout FotR in which Boromir seems to bond with and show concern for others within the Fellowship, perhaps a bit more than some of the others do. When Gimli is weeping over the tomb of Balin, Boromir squeezes his shoulder in a small gesture of comfort, while all the others ignore his grief and do their own thing. Similarly, he petitions for a moment to let the Hobbits grieve outside the East Gate. In the EE, Boromir seems quite sincere in his counseling of Frodo not to carry the weight of the dead, and he certainly exhibits a sensitivity in recognizing Frodo's pain.

I came to believe that this represents more than a random trait, or even a device to gain audience empathy with Boromir for the ending. I think it is a reasonable representation of a guy who has spent much of his life as a soldier and military leader. This kind of bonding within a small unit of soldiers would probably be quite a natural thing for him.

For me, the likability factor for Movie Boromir is significantly higher than Book Boromir, although I can see much of the basis for the film character embedded in the text.


BeornBerserker
Lorien

Jun 17 2012, 4:25pm

Post #22 of 23 (212 views)
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Ralph Bakshi [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought this was a homage to the Ralph Bakshi adaptation. I think the scene mirrors one, although the one in the Bakshi movie took place in Lothlorien. PJ mentions the Bakshi version in several interviews in the Appendices on the extended DVD's. I think he was throwing them a nod to it.


Yngwulff
Gondor

Jun 17 2012, 9:07pm

Post #23 of 23 (314 views)
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O Boromir! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It's in perfect accordance with Boromir's character in the book, too. There he was revealed to have been taken care of his little brother since they were young, even though their father - whom he loved too - saw little in him. That Faramir loved Boromir so dearly is the best defence he has, IMO. Don't say he is biased because he's a brother. As a sister I can tell siblings don't automatically just love each other, it must come from real admiration and closeness as always



I agree. Faramir and Boromir were VERY close, but Boromir was very proud like his father and felt that as the eldest son he bore the weight of responsibility of protecting Gondor was upon his shoulders. Just as his father expected of him.

In that guardian-like role he also shielded his brother from his father whenever possible as well, which carried down into acting as a defender of the Hobbits as was his nature.

Aragorn saw the good in him, and when Boromir dies defending Merry and Pippin, he forgives him for his moment of weakness. He was a good man, but the weight of his obligations was what tempted him to take the Ring. This allowed Aragorn to see the inherant danger of it and enabled him to resist it, thus letting Frodo go off with Sam.

Faramir did not have the weight of the fate of Gondor pressing upon his shoulder like Boromir, and was also able to resist its temptaion, especially after learning of Boromir's downfall. He knew his brother well.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well

 
 

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