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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 9 2012, 7:47pm
Post #1 of 11
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Afterlife of elves and humans
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I'm writing a paper on the (mainland) Chinese translation of Tolkien's works, and especially on the ways that concepts from Chinese religion inevitably percolate into the text. (This is a long-standing, ongoing project.) One of the specific points has to do with the nature of death and the afterlife. There is a passage in the Silmarillion (p. 118 of the Del ray paperback), which says:
"What may befall of their [i.e. humans'] spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea."
Can anyone suggest other passages which explicitly describe the post-mortem fate of elves or humans?
Eric Reinders
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 9 2012, 9:43pm
Post #2 of 11
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Good luck with that premise...
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I have doubts that any concepts specifically from Chinese religion made it into Tolkien's mythos. However, I am hardly an expert on the subject.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Mar 9 2012, 10:37pm
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I'm no expert on HomE, kinda a 'pick & choose' reader of it, but isn't that 'Finrod & Andreth' essay supposed to contain quite a bit on Elvish & Men's views on death & the afterlife?
It's found in, well, I've got volumes 11 & 12 right here, but I just decided to read #10 from cover to cover, and it's, uh, in the bathroom  so, it must be in that one as I don't see it in these two. 
Volume Ten is called 'Morgoth's Ring'....
If you don't have it, your local library might ~ or can most likely order it from a surrounding one.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 10 2012, 2:02am
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Appendices:-
"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, " - Appendices ,Aragorn to Arwen
"....walks with his father under the trees of Eldamar."- Silmarillion, about the slain Finrod
The best part to read is the chapter in the Silmarillion about Luthien trying to convince Mandos to let the dead Beren return- it's the only view we have of the Halls themselves.
The Dwarves, as a side point know clearly what happens to them-they sit in the Halls of Mandos, and hope to be revived when the world ends to help Aule rebuild the world. The Elves think Dwarves just disappear into stone.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Mar 10 2012, 3:27am
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If your topic is limited to LotR and The Hobbit (the only ones published in Tolkien's lifetime) there isn't much, and PhantomS's quote is one of the few relevant. If you can include the Sil, there's a lot more. For example, in the Valaquenta we have this description of Mandos (whose real name is Námo):
Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his Judgements only at the bidding of Manwë.
Then later, we have this:
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World’s end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
This is probably more what you're looking for. If you have an electronic copy of the Sil you can probably find more by searching on Mandos and death. And if your research can include HoME and you can get hold of Morgoth's Ring, as Otaku-sempai suggested, there's more philosophy and speculation.
Note that this second passage admits the possibility of reincarnation, as suggested in 2 of the passages from Phantom S.
Is Tolkien a good writer, or amateurish and dated? Join the discussion of Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon by Brian Rosebury, now playing in the Reading Room!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Modtheow
Lorien
Mar 10 2012, 7:30pm
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In Scull and Hammond's The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide there's a long entry on "Mortality and Immortality" which might be useful, if you haven't already looked at it.
Your project sounds very interesting and I'm curious about your approach. I'm wondering if there is something in the actual translation into Chinese (would that be Mandarin?) that emphasizes concepts from Chinese religion (and would that be Buddhism?) -- what I mean is, are there certain words or phrases that are being used to translate Tolkien's words and that suggest familiar Chinese religious beliefs (thus adding something to Tolkien's work), or are you looking mainly at concepts that are already in Tolkien's work that could be compatible with Chinese beliefs?
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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 10 2012, 8:42pm
Post #7 of 11
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far. I have less that two weeks to get my paper ready for ICFA, so this helps!
To clarify, I'm not trying to find Chinese influences in Tolkien's works. Rather, I'm looking at how the Chinese translations inevitably contain elements from the indigenous culture. For example, when translating lines about dying and the afterlife, the Chinese contains vocabulary drawn from Buddhism. At one point, "he returned to the West" (guixi) is used for "he died." This term is not meant to say, Thror was a Pure Land Buddhist. In context, it just means "he died." Nonetheless, it's a Buddhist term originally. Another example, in translating "Some [elves] say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves," the Chinese has: "Some elves said, their spirits returned again to the halls of Mandos. But the place of their waiting for transmigration [lunhui = samsara] is not the elves' own domain." I'm back-translating the Chinese very literally to uncover how the translators tried to make sense of the original.
There is a masters degree thesis by David Van der Peet, "The Lord of the Rings: Critique of Two Chinese Translations," (Fu Jen University, 2000) which is interesting but unfortunately rather fixated on what's wrong with the translations. And sometimes, yes, the translators just make mistakes. But I'm more interested in translation as re-negotiation rather than just loss.
Another example. In the Ainulindale. Melkor "had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness." (p. 4). The Chinese, back-translated literally, has: "He often went alone to the open and spacious [kongkuang] places, looking for the 'unextinguishable flame.' In his breast was a hot desire, he thought to make life himself. In his view, Iluvatar basically had not thought of the hundun unmanifested world [hundun weikai de shijie]. Facing an expanse of emptiness [kongxu], he was very impatient."
So here we have the very potent term hundun--not really translatable directly back into English, but meaning a primordial chaos, not nothingness. It has strong Taoist connotations. I also found the term in the Catholic (but not Protestant) translation of Genesis 1:2, to render the phrase, "the Earth was without form and void," so maybe in this Silmarillion translation we have a double resonance: Taoist and also Biblical. I'm just trying to sort of some of this intertextuality.
I've also looked at terms for monsters of various kinds, which likewise derives from Buddhist and Taoist notions of hells and ghosts.
Eric
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 10 2012, 9:35pm
Post #8 of 11
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far. I have less that two weeks to get my paper ready for ICFA, so this helps!
To clarify, I'm not trying to find Chinese influences in Tolkien's works. Rather, I'm looking at how the Chinese translations inevitably contain elements from the indigenous culture. Yes, this could be an interesting subject, esp. to those with access to such Chinese translations. Good hunting.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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Modtheow
Lorien
Mar 11 2012, 7:56pm
Post #9 of 11
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Thanks for the glimpse into your project; it sounds fascinating. Good luck with your paper! (Are there sessions dedicated to Tolkien at ICFA?)
I was thinking about Tolkien's objections to some early translators who wanted to change his nomenclature while he wanted to retain words like "hobbit" without having them translated. I don't imagine it's possible to keep a word like "hobbit" in a Chinese translation, is it? Are names or other invented words of Tolkien's retained or changed in some way that resonates with Chinese readers?
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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 12 2012, 6:28pm
Post #10 of 11
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Oh yes, there's a good deal of Tolkien at ICFA. This year's program is downloadable at http://iafa.highpoint.edu/annual-conference/next/
In the translation I'm looking at, "hobbit" is transliterated as huo-bi-te.
In the mainland translation orc is transliterated as oa-ke, but in the Taiwan translation they translated it as banshouren, "half-beast-men."
So it's a mixture of various techniques. Sometimes it doesn't work well, like Wei-suo-tuo-pu shan (a transliteration of Weathertop, plus shan "mountain").
I started this project about 3 years ago, when I was in Beijing, and I posted a few comments on this board at the time. It lay fallow for a while, and now I'm trying to make a paper of it.
Eric
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Modtheow
Lorien
Mar 13 2012, 12:00am
Post #11 of 11
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...and for the extra information on translation. I'll stop pestering you with questions now -- you have a paper to write! Hope it goes well.
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