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squire
Half-elven
Dec 27 2011, 4:08pm
Post #1 of 4
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** App. F – On Translation ** 10. – Who goes there: Quendi, or Eldar? A Mini-Quiz!
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In the home stretch now, having dealt with the term Dwarves, we find Prof. Tolkien concluding with a note about his similar term Elves. He distinguishes between two possible referents for this English word. The first is all the Elves of Middle-earth, of whatever station and nobility – the Race of Elves, as it were, as opposed to the Race of Men, Ents, Dwarves, etc. The word for this group in Quenya (High-Elvish) is Quendi, meaning “the speakers”. But there is a second word in Quenya, Eldar, for which Elves is also given as a translation. The Eldar are the Three Kindreds, who “sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).”
A. Are the Three Kindreds the “High Elves”, in LotR – or is there any other indication in the book just who among the Elves (in the sense of Quendi, the entire race) that we meet are Eldar, and who are not?
Mini-Quiz. Here are ten selections from the early parts of both of Prof. Tolkien’s translated histories, in which “Elves” are introduced to the reader. In each case, try using the two actual words that “Elves” may be referring to, and decide which one best fits the sense of the sentence.
1. “Hmmm! it smells like elves [Quendi/Eldar]!” thought Bilbo, and he looked up at the stars. … He loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too. (Hobbit, 3)
2. The feasting people were Wood-elves [Quendi/Eldar], of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves [Quendi/Eldar] of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. (Hobbit, 8)
3. Elves [Quendi/Eldar], who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. (LotR, I.2)
4. ‘No, and I don’t want to,’ said Frodo. I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves [Quendi/Eldar], have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? (LotR, I.2)
5. ‘Yes, it is Elves [Quendi/Eldar],’ said Frodo. ‘One can meet them sometimes in the Woody End. They don’t live in the Shire, but they wander into it in Spring and Autumn, out of their own lands away beyond the Tower Hills. (LotR, I.3)
6. ‘These are High Elves [Quendi/Eldar]! They spoke the name of Elbereth!’ said Frodo in amazement, ‘Few of that fairest folk are ever seen in the Shire. Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea.’ (LotR, I.3)
7. [Strider] knew many histories and legends of long ago, of Elves [Quendi/Eldar] and Men and the good and evil deeds of the Elder Days. (LotR, I.11)
8. The Elves [Quendi/Eldar] may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven [Quendian/Eldarin]-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. (LotR, II.1)
9. ‘If all the grievances that stand between Elves [Quendi/Eldar] and Dwarves are to be brought up here, we may as well abandon this Council.’ (LotR, II.2)
10. ‘Those who made [the three Elven Rings] did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves [Quendi/Eldar] of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow.’ (LotR, II.2)
B. For you, does it make a difference in your understanding if you were to know whether a given usage of “Elves” is a translation of Quendi or Eldar?
C. Do you agree that Prof. Tolkien had to use the one old English word for two Elvish words, because it was “indeed the only one available”?
He argues (to himself, seemingly) that the word is problematic because it “has been diminished” and now suggests folk-images to the modern reader as unlikely for the Quendi “as are butterflies to the swift falcon.”
D. When you think of “Elf”, what do you see in your head?
E. What did Prof. Tolkien’s readers see, when they first read The Hobbit in 1938 or The Lord of the Rings in 1954?
F. Why does he suddenly use Quendi in his argument here, without italics?
Although the butterflies vs. falcon simile seems apt, Prof. Tolkien at once seems to regret it, because both animals are winged, and the Quendi never were: “Wings of the body [are] as unnatural to them as to Men.”
G. Since his readers know perfectly well that the Elves of Middle-earth are not flying beings, who is he arguing with here?
He concludes with another flight of rhetoric, praising the physical and (somewhat) the moral qualities of the Quendi and particularly “among them” the Eldar.
H. When he goes on to describe the Eldar as “tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed…[with voices that] had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard”, how then are we supposed to image the Quendi who are not Eldar (like Legolas, for instance)?
Although an odd string of end-notes on Hobbit-names follows immediately, the final words of the final Appendix of The Lord of the Rings is “Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return.”
I. Does this refer to the Eldar only, so that we are supposed to imagine that the Quendi are still with us on this world?
Prof. Tolkien is clearly an imaginative and poetically-skilled scholar and translator.
J. Is this final burst of heigh style congruent with the relatively sober discussion of modes and terms of translation that occupies most of this Appendix?
Next, and last: Some thoughts on the NOTE ON THREE NAMES
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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acheron
Gondor
Dec 27 2011, 5:48pm
Post #2 of 4
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Are we clear that *Westron* has two separate words?
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I don't know, I am asking. If not, is it possible that Quendi/Eldar is an Elven (Quendian?) distinction not necessarily observed by others?
I'm thinking specifically of your first example.
“Hmmm! it smells like elves [Quendi/Eldar]!” thought Bilbo, and he looked up at the stars. … He loved elves, though he seldom met them; but he was a little frightened of them too.
Certainly by the time of LOTR, Bilbo is well-versed in the differences between groups of elves, and their histories. At this point though, I can't see him making the distinction.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 27 2011, 7:15pm
Post #3 of 4
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It's very hard to tell how to answer your question. Prof. Tolkien in this Appendix specifically says that he is using "Elves" to translate from two Quenya words, Eldar and Quendi. At times like this one has to struggle to remember that Quenya at the end of the Third Age was rarely spoken at all in Middle-earth. The exceptions were the High Elves themselves, using it in ritual matters, or their closest Elvish or Mortal associates like the noblest of the Dunedain, or the better-educated Elf-friends like Bilbo and Frodo. In fact, most of the Elvish vocabulary found in Middle-earth's proper names and place names are in Sindarin, because the Dunedain of Gondor and Arnor spoke Sindarin as a native language; presumably Eldar and Quendi have Sindarin equivalents, since they represent well-understood and distinct concepts.
But what about the Westron, the language in which the Red Book is written? I would assume that mortals in general would have originally had only one root word for the Elves, as you suggest; how could they be expected to understand the distinction between all Elves, and those who had undertaken the Great Journey, especially when many of the latter group never even left Middle-earth after all? But the Westron is not just a language spoken by "mortals in general". Rather, it is descended via Numenor from the Adunaic language of the First Age Men, i.e. those mortals who were most intermingled with the High Elves. Adunaic was linguistically alien to Elvish, as we have seen in this Appendix, but Prof. Tolkien informs us that after these Men met the Elves their language was "enriched and softened under Elvish influence." (App. F, "Of Men")
All of these circumstances argue, I think, for Westron having, as Quenya and presumably Sindarin do, two words for which Prof. Tolkien concluded that Elves is the only possible translation. Sure, an uneducated Man, or a naive Hobbit like Bilbo at the start of his adventure, might only use the one that means the Quendi, the entire race. But given Prof. Tolkien's propensity to write interchangeably in English "elves", "Elves", "High Elves", and "Wood-elves", when the context often suggests that the speaker knows well the difference between the Eldar and the others, it is very hard to conclude that the problem isn't with the speaker's original choice of words, but rather with an unusual sloppiness of translation - as if the translator himself has at times forgotten that there are two distinct words meant by the word Elf.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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hanne
Lorien
Jan 1 2012, 8:42pm
Post #4 of 4
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I don't think I understood the question :(
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Isn't that a bit like saying Tolkien should always specify Fallohide/Stoor instead of just saying hobbit, or Rohirrim/Dunedain instead of just saying Man? Maybe I'm not understanding the question?
Y 1. “Hmmm! it smells like hobbits!” thought Bilbo.
X 1. “Hmmm! it smells like Stoors!” thought Bilbo. (unless he's being rude!)
Y 2. The feasting people were Haradrim, of course. They differed from the Dunedain.
X 2. The feasting people were Men, of course. They differed from the Dunedain.
The two where it would be interesting to know the difference are your examples 8 and 10, especially given the distinctions hinted at in 2.
? 8. The Quendi may fear the Dark Lord… but never again will they listen to him or serve him.
? 8. The Eldar may fear the Dark Lord… but never again will they listen to him or serve him.
(I guess Quendi here, since it's said there were no Elves (Quendi?) on the dark side in the Last Alliance, though there were some of all other kinds of peoples.)
? 10. … understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Quendi of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow.’
? 10. …understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Eldar of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow.
(No idea – not sure we learn enough about the Mirkwood Elves in the Hobbit or even Legolas in LOTR to say if Mirkwood/non-Eldar culture had preserved anything unstained. Maybe not, if they are wild and dangerous.)
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