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** "The Grey Havens" ** - Part 2: Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most

BallyWhooo
Bree

Oct 11 2011, 11:51pm

Post #1 of 5 (938 views)
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** "The Grey Havens" ** - Part 2: Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most Can't Post

The next two sections of the chapter relate the results of Sam’s work, the continued Ring spell Frodo can not recover from (more on that later), and the internal conflict that Sam is dealing with.

“What a Wonderful World”
  • Here is an instance, to be certain, of some fantastical writing on Tolkien’s part. If he were writing in a realistic mode, Sam would spend weeks, months and years waiting to see the results of Galadriel’s gift. Instead, Tolkien spreads a wealth of “magic” all over the proceedings and amplifies the situation greatly. Not only does the flora of the Shire respond acutely to Sam’s work, but every other attribute of the Shire appears to be enhanced in some way, right down to the color of newborns’ hair. Why so? Is this because of Galadriel’s gift? Or is it really related to the elimination of Sauron’s power and will from Middle Earth? Is Gandalf laying more blessings than just on The Prancing Pony’s beer?
  • Sam remains with Frodo and the Cottons until the New Row is ready and then he moves back home with his Gaffer. Question is, if he is so torn about moving in with Frodo and feels the need to be near him and/or protect him, then why move back in with the Gaffer? I guess one could suppose that Sam is trying to help and assist his father move back in and get him “settled” before striking out on his own life, and then he comes across the struggle of wanting to be near Frodo but wanting a family of his own. Your thoughts? Much has been made over the years about possible latent homosexuality in the novel, and the notion of Sam wanting to “live with” Frodo is as clear an indication of that as you could want, if you believe that sort of thing. I do not. I don’t think Tolkien intended that at all, if for no other reason than his very strong Catholic beliefs. Nonetheless, why is it, do you think, that Sam really feels the need to live with Frodo? Why do you suppose that Frodo just assumes that Sam will come move in with him?
  • Tolkien has given us not one shred of information about Rosie Cotton until Sam returns from the Quest. Not a mention all through the opening chapters of Fellowship (or even Concerning Hobbits). Why is that? Do you think it was merely an oversight on Tolkien’s part? Do you think he might have ever considered revising the initial chapters to include her? As a youngster, I was side-swiped by this entire relationship. How could Sam have that strong a feeling for someone without the reader knowing about it through all this narrative? As an adult, it seems to me that perhaps Tolkien is making the point of showing us that there was this entire other part of Sam’s life that we didn’t find out about, because the Ring’s destruction was far more important than a possible hobbit courtship, and maybe we’re supposed to be stuck by the thought that there was so much more that Sam was willing to give up, and that he didn’t even speak up about it to Gandalf or Frodo or anyone. Clearly though, the point is that Sam sees his future in the Shire and is ready to settle down to a normal “respectable” hobbit life of no further adventures. How do you see it?
  • How do you think Rosie felt when Sam announced that the two of them would be sharing Frodo’s home? She seems to have some wisdom about her (notwithstanding her comment that Sam has “wasted” a year – and that could be interpreted as a sarcastic or flirtatious comment). Do you suppose she has the wisdom to see that it’s the best thing for everybody? Do you suppose she has the foresight to realize it is not going to be a permanent situation?

NEXT TIME: You Can't Go Home Again


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 14 2011, 8:35am

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As I tried to point out last week, the degeneration of the Shire was abnormally fast: too much destruction and inappropriate building in an unrealistically short time. Now the situation is reversed, and we're getting a "fast-forward" repair.

It is true, though, that immediately following WWII there was a huge baby boom: many of you here are products of it. Why would not the War of the Ring and its side-effects in the Shire be different?

As for Frodo and Sam, they forged a relationship during their quest that has few direct equivalents in our world, but was very clearly understood in Tolkien's era: a man and his personal servant. Especially in WWI, the officer and his "batman" (personal servant) became very close. Sam and Frodo have accepted responsibility for each other in a reciprocal way that is unbreakable.

Sam and Rosie are a different matter. Tolkien apparently did not feel comfortable writing romances! Even his tale of Beren and Luthien was abstract and fantastical, a little short on believable personal relationship details. Arwen got short shrift, and Rosie did little better. Personally, I think Jackson's films handled this subplot extremely well.

As for how the three (and the subsequent arrivals!) will fare in Bag End: again, the model of servants and their families sharing a home with their master, with everyone knowing their place, was well accepted and understood in the England where Tolkien grew up, less so in later years. Even though Sam will become Mayor and earn great respect, he and Frodo will always see each other as Master/Servant, a relationship that's almost like family.






Sign up now for discussions of the LotR Appendices, beginning Oct. 17!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 15 2011, 1:52pm

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Frodo and Sam & Rosie [In reply to] Can't Post

1. On Sam moving in with Rosie to live in Bag End

Sam and Frodo had a deep personal bond, which probably made it feel natural that they should live in the same "house". Especially when seen it´s right context - a society with master-servant relationships and these persons living in different parts of the same house - I think it makes sense to have Sam and Rosie moving in with Frodo. It also seems like a good deal for everyone involved: Sam and Rosie gets a finer and more spacious place to live than what they would have done otherwise, Sam gets to stay close to Frodo and Rosie at the same time, and Frodo gets company and is being looked after in the best way possible.

2. Rosie
As for Rosie, I´ve never felt bothered by the fact that we know so little about her. In the big picture of the events that are related in LoTR, Rosie isn´t a significant figure. Nor do we get to know much about the romantic feelings of other main characters in the story. When Tolkien wanted to write about romance, he seems more interested in abstract and highly romanticized aspects of it in a way which doesn´t fit Sam and Rosie´s relationship. Tolkien´s style fits better when writing about a romance like that between Eowyn and Faramir IMO.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 16 2011, 2:30am

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Picking up the threads of an old life [In reply to] Can't Post

It shouldn't come as a surprise that Frodo expects Sam to move in with him: back when Frodo was moving to Crickhollow, it was known that Sam would go along to "do for Mr. Frodo". Sam's moving into Bag End is simply a continuation of this.

It's interesting how the relationship of Sam and Rosie mirrors Tolkien's own life! Apparently, when Tolkien was "courting" Edith, he said not a word about her to the rest of TCBS. He kept those two "worlds" of his separate: the boy's club and the romance. And so does Sam: the Quest with Frodo is what we hear about, the girl comes in only when he "pops the question".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 20 2011, 4:45pm

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Blonds have more fun [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with what everyone else has already said. To touch on another couple of points:

1. Blonds: they could indeed be a connection to Galadriel with her "dust" all over the Shire. My gut feeling in reading this chapter, however, is that all the blond kids are part of the "newness" of the post-Sauron world since blonds were uncommon before. Another connection is that the Shire became so wonderfully prosperous that year, that the blond/golden hair was akin to real gold.

2. The quick recovery of the Shire: there was the land itself seeming to breath a sigh of relief in Gondor when Sauron fell, and when the Eagle came with the news, people were all singing and happy. I think that's similar to the Shire--the land and its flora are happy--even though Mordor was far away. Maybe the Shire remembers the much closer Mordor offshoot of Angmar, and now knows it won't ever be back.

 
 

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